We’ve started off 2015 with some good transport news – the Government’s announcement of the first urban cycleway projects, including the brilliant Nelson St offramp project, and Auckland Transport’s interesting proposal for light rail in the old tramway suburbs.

However, there is a big thistle in this bouquet of roses: AT’s proposal to cut down a stand of old pohutukawas to widen the St Lukes intersection. The other week, Patrick aroused a great deal of angst with his report on AT’s consultation meeting, in which he “accuse[d] those responsible for this outcome of professional incompetence”. Matt followed that up with a thoughtful piece that argued that the issue has aroused such passions among Aucklanders because we expect better of our transport agencies and elected representatives.

Now, I haven’t been involved in this project at any level, so I don’t know why AT chose this design. But this does not look like a good use of urban space to me. In my view, if Auckland wants to be the world’s most liveable city, it has to do better than unhospitable seas of asphalt like this.

But that’s just my personal view, and reasonable people could disagree with me. I don’t particularly want to jump into the debate over whether this is a good project, a bad project, or an argument for outsourcing all our traffic engineering to the Netherlands. Rather, I’d like to approach the issue from a higher altitude, and ask:

What does this project say about the relationship between our engineers, our politicians, and the public? What needs to change about that relationship?

While Patrick and Matt focused on AT’s conduct, it was also remarkable that Auckland Council politicians and Auckland Transport board members – with some honourable exceptions – remained silent about the pohutukawas.

This was disappointing, as we elect Councillors and appoint board members precisely so they can represent the public interest on tricky policy matters. It’s also a bit surprising, given the alacrity with which Councillors and local board members have reacted to other contentious issues like the Unitary Plan. (And the speed at which they race to the scene of cycleway openings.)

Now, I tend to be an optimist about democratic processes and public policy-making. I like to think that if the politicians or board members expressed a strong view that the project should be done differently, then the engineers would go back to the drawing board and design something different.

With a better brief, and strong instructions to follow it, the result could be much better. There are many examples of great engineering, even in Auckland, that illustrate how engineering can be a creative, imaginative, and constructive act.

So why was this design advanced? From the outside, it looks like there may have been two sins of omission: On the one hand, politicians seem to find it hard to question the experts, even when the results look a bit dodgy. On the other hand, traffic engineers are sometimes inattentive to the social, economic, and environmental context in which they work.

Behind the trees

Fortunately, these are fixable problems. If our public servants – politicians and AT engineers alike – raise their game, we will get better outcomes. Here, I want to suggest a couple of ideas that could help improve matters.

First and foremost, politicians need to treat engineering recommendations with a bit of healthy skepticism. Engineers are hardly infallible: they are simply a group of people applying a set of tools and methods that have weaknesses and blind spots.

It’s important to be aware of these weaknesses. In particular, don’t trust the traffic models. They are not prophesies handed down from the Oracle at Delphi. They have been wrong in the past, and will be wrong again.  “The model says it will get worse in ten years” is not necessarily a good reason to spend tens of millions of dollars now.

ResizedImage600304-FutureDemand-Diagram1
See? Not a perfect model at all.

Likewise, the traffic engineering discipline, like any profession, has some unacknowledged blind spots. It consistently underestimates induced demand, blatantly ignores pedestrian and cyclist behaviour, and recommends standards that result in perverse outcomes. If it looks like the engineers have missed something important in their design, they might very well have! So don’t be afraid to ask them to fix it.

However, don’t ignore them entirely, either. Engineers are, after all, professionals with professional ethics and knowledge in the field. They are good at identifying the trade-offs between different designs. If they say that two desirable outcomes are mutually incompatible, or achievable only at great cost, it’s worth hearing that. But I don’t think that it’s appropriate for elected representatives to delegate the authority to resolve those trade-offs to the engineers. After all, we elected them to make hard choices on our behalf.

Second, the engineers also have to raise their game. They cannot hide behind the excuse that they simply “designed to meet the brief”. For one thing, engineers often help to write the brief – as the experts, they are consulted on what the project requirements should be. (This is not a bad thing, per se. In my experience, asking the experts what’s possible before asking them to do the impossible can save a lot of time and money.)

For another, a project brief is only a piece of paper. The quality of the places that we build and the happiness of the people that use them are the really important outcomes. If we want Auckland to be a good city to live in, building good urban places has to be a bottom line for engineers.

In other words, I think that traffic engineers need to pay attention to their social responsibilities. Road design has incredibly important effects on our economic, social, and environmental wellbeing. A bad road can cut people off from the world, and choke them with pollution. A good street can open up new possibilities for them. This is important, and AT needs to acknowledge it in every damn intersection they build.

In short: everyone needs to take responsibility for what they’re doing.

Lastly, I’m not beating up on traffic engineering here. Many of the points that I’m making arose from conversations with engineers. I would make the exact same recommendations to my fellow economists and to the policymakers that rely on our advice. They are just good practice.

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60 comments

  1. Good piece, well said. Agree totally. Engineers design to the given parameters. Change the parameters, then the finished design will change. If they’d been told: solve this traffic problem, but don’t touch the trees, they’d have a different solution. As you say, they need to be told: Back to the drawing board.

  2. Yes. So now what needs to happen is for the Board to step in and call for a long pause. AT has recently shown it is more than capable of getting to the best outcome through time. This scheme shows every sign of being rushed through with a very narrow and exclusively technical traffic-only set of objectives and parameters. This project, like every intersection on the Western Ring Route, has got the wiff of RoNS time pressure steaming off it.

    AT should proceed with an absolute do minimum, use the money elsewhere within its severely constrained budget, and wait for and observe the real traffic burden of the opening of the Waterview tunnels to reveal itself. And not just opening day, or even the first six months, a good year of observation is probably needed before irreversible destruction and an extremely sub-optimal walking and cycling environment is committed too.

    This and the failure to build Rapid Transit standard bus stations during this SH16widening is blotting AT’s increasingly impressive copybook. Is the proximity of a big fat project by NZTA’s HNO the driving force?

    Remember NZTA also said all sorts of things were impossible as part of the Waterview project until directed to deliver them by the environment court, then suddenly their engineers discovered all sorts of higher levels of performance that they were denying themselves previously.

    There are always alternatives.

    1. “AT has recently shown it is more than capable of getting to the best outcome through time”… with the exception of cycleway projects, which it has a history of bungling or not delivering. That’s one area where there’s a good reason to outsource our engineering to the Netherlands. At least for a time, to give the good people of AT a bit of exposure and a learning experience.

  3. I’ve been told the NZTA have basically said no car should ever even remotely back up on the motorway off ramp as that’s unsafe even though the only time that would happen is when the motorway was at a standstill anyway.

    1. Yeah right, maybe NZTA need to look at the Greenlane and Ellerslie rounadabouts and off/on ramps – as I see regularly traffic backed all the way into the lefthand motorway lanes on both these offramps when going south.

      And not just when the “motorway is clogged/at a standstill”,

      Case of NZTA giving guidelines and AT treating them as written in tablets of stones?

      1. It depends if the person stuck out on the motorway first decides to be an idiot and stay there with a bunch of people queuing behind in the left lane or if they are smart and start lining up in the shoulder. Just mark the shoulders like slip-lanes, that fixes that… Also a more ideal plan is to toll the motorway so there are less pointlessly-not-using-pt vehicles on it and use it to subsidize PT, so those not contributing to congested motorways reap the benefits with improved PT. Perfect!

        1. Yeah well you’ve obviously never been stuck there mate or you’d know theres no “shoulder” at Greenlane to queue in, and the Greenlane off-ramp design has a narrow neck, which means that you can’t fit two cars side by side up the off ramp from the motorway either even if there was – so all off ramp cars have to go single file until they can stack 2 wide at the Give way.
          Not that helps as invariably the tailback is from cars trying to go around the roundabout who can’t do that due to cars on the on ramp queueing back.

          Yeah maybe tolling will help – but better on/off ramp design and better management of the on ramp signalling at key roundabouts like these might be a shorter term fix – in that it doesn’t require a law change to implement.

        2. And the really funny thing about the constipated Greenlane roundabout and the idiotic light phasings to the east & west that try to compensate for the choke point is that the Auckland Motorway Alliance, responsible for running the network, have their offices two hundred meets along Greenlane Rd in the Fertility Associates building. You think their proximity to the issue would prompt them to do something about it.

        3. Wasn’t specifically referring to Greenlane off-ramp, was just a generalization of many other off-ramps I have experienced this at, namely Albany Highway on the Upper Harbor motorway and Te Atatu citybound prior to the shoulder being closed for upgrades.

  4. I guess we have to be careful of being hypocrites. When a small group of people make a loud noise and completely override Auckland Council’s planning team we call them NIMBY’s; isn’t the pohutukawas a similar thing except with AT?

    1. Whose backyard are they in? There’s no pictures here of angry people standing in their backyard complaining about how the loss of trees means they won’t renovate their house now. The arguments I have seen here are about how this is the most stupid possible plan for this area and that more sensible alternatives have not been considered properly, not that anyone is suffering a direct loose of amenity.

  5. Well said Peter N. A role for you perhaps in achieving consensus from the contentious, especially for projects like the St Lukes Interchange. Your employer should consider hiring you out as a mediator and needs assessor, specialising in economic and social outcomes for transport projects.

  6. Part of the problem is that the Saint Lukes Interchange was treated as a separate project lying outside the designation for the SH16-SH20 project which was dealt with by the Board of Inquiry. I attempted to have it included but got slapped down by various authorities including Judge Newhook. So it became a small project in its own right very much in the shadow of its far bigger neighbour which was consuming all of our time and energy back in 2011. By the time we became aware of the details in the last year or so the basic design was pretty much locked in. So yes, I agree that we need to have public involvement at a far earlier conceptual stage rather than trying to fiddlie with relatively minor aspects very late in the day.

  7. Engineers really like it when things are flat and straight. And wide, in some cases. It seems that any divergence from those is a compromise of stringent standards. That perspective is incompatible with urban development that places the person above, or at least even with, cars. Those trees represent a quality of life/aesthetic/environmental benefit that is irreplaceable in an urban setting. I believe that there must have been an option that did not require those trees to be removed. Why don’t they show it to us? I know they are capable of a design – and this *is* a design issue – that keeps the trees.

    A similar situation occurred in Whangarei with widening of SH1 through the city. They destroyed a block long line of gorgeous mature trees which defined one side of the square. The result is awful and will be awful for 50 years.

    Looking at the world’s most liveable cities list one is not struck with how good the motorway system is, but how good the aesthetics, open spaces, community gathering spaces, architecture, urban design, cultural facilities, etc. are compared to others. Achieving that requires attention to a million small things, not a few big things. When thinking of Vienna one doesn’t think “easy to drive around”, but the best music in the world, stunning architecture, cafes, cake, and vibrant urban life. Quality of life is about people living in a place, not just tourists. Make it a great place to live and the tourists will come.

    Ancient trees in an urban landscape are a rarity. Because over the decades no one has cared. Road building and insensitive development bulldoze everything in their path. We need to change that perspective. Sure it takes more effort, more compromise, sometimes more money. But that’s the price you pay – there’s always a price. Becoming the World’s Most Liveable City (R) is no mean feat. Everybody has to be on board and give that goal at least a modicum of consideration in everything they plan. Yes, it isn’t the clearest direction you can provide an engineer, but it can be as simple as “what would be better here, tiny saplings or the trees already here?” Reasonable people can disagree but for dog’s sake, let’s have the conversation.

    1. stevenz sadly the very same engineer is prominent in both these cases….

      And no place is admired for its tarmac, this is a case of totally inverted priority from every view except a narrow technocratic one.

    2. german engineering is famous for the precision, japanese for the miniaturization, italian for the form and function. AT engineering seems stuck in big is better an STFU

    3. I am still very sad over those trees in Whangarei. I grew beside that park and those old trees will be missed. To add insult to injury, the new slip lane is so _useless_.

      The Whangarei council could have stopped those trees being cut down but didn’t and there were big protests. I do wonder whether the council wanted to be on the good side of NZTA, since they got a pile of money to build a quite pretty but not very necessary bridge across Whangarei harbour.

      In Whangarei have also recently taken out a couple more trees (somewhat tatty trees in this case) to build one of the most oversize intersections you will ever see. If you drive through Whangarei you cannot miss it. Apparently they thought about making a roundabout and then didn’t and those trees weren’t really necessary anyway…

      1. NZTA do threaten to take their money away to gain acquiescence from locals, most recently and bluntly in the ongoing Wellington flyover case. The financial imbalance between this central government backed agency and local structures is an enormous problem. Not that the locals are always right, but there is a pretty clear sense that AT are certainly not questioning any of NZTA’s demands here.

        We are spending a great deal of scarce money and a massive place value cost to save NZTA from any blushes that traffic congestion may cause on their structure on opening of it’s massive new sections. This side project does not match the stated objectives of the Council.

  8. The common denominator here is abuse of power. There are good engineers and bad engineers,there are good town planners and bad planners (unfortunately all the bad ones seem to gravitate to Auckland Council and are put in charge of the Unitary Plan ) and finally there are just bad urban designers (pompous fools who have no idea how to do their job) . On the surface each of these professions is a noble profession and with the right people in them we as a nation might get somewhere. Unfortunately these professions seem to attract control freaks and neo nazis who want to drive their projects through at any cost. Logic or common sense means nothing to these people.Its their way or no way.
    However there is light on the horizon, we as a nation are becoming more educated and more aware and it is up to us to join together as communities to have our voice heard and to exercise our own power as citizens. If all else fails history tells us that a bit of creative sabotage can turn defeats into victory.

    1. “these professions seem to attract control freaks and neo nazis”.

      I have worked with engineers for more than 3 decades and find your comments wrong and downright offensive. As for logic meaning nothing to engineers…you really don’t have a clue, do you?

      1. So it is logical to remove trees when you do not have too. So what do I not get.? I also have worked with engineers for 35 years and most are oblivious to the bigger picture. Thats why we have such a mess on our hands.The non consultation meeting with the power moguls at AT is a prime example of Neo Nazi behaviour…. abuse of power.

    2. Yes I agree with mfwic here.

      One of Peter’s key points is that we need to have a balance between democratic and technocratic forces, which in turn creates a rather virtuous system in which technocrats can exercise their professional expertise, while recognising democratic parameters and value-judgments.

      P.s. Before bandying around terms like “neo nazis” on this blog again, I would suggest reading “The Lucifer Effect: How good people turn evil”. The evidence in this book, which deals a lot with Nazi Germany, provides some interesting insight into how poorly designed social systems (and local government and professions are “social systems”) are more likely to lead to abuse of power, in various forms. Like Peter says, we all need to do better.

      1. So do I, it’s not an absence of logic, if anything it’s an overdose of it. If this profession suffers from anything it’s that classic issue of reductionism. Because it is highly numerate it only wants to deal with the quantifiable. TEs are tremendously good at counting vehicles, calculating throughput, optimising radii etc. Issues that require more synthesis than analysis seem to be simply ignored, just don’t compute for this kind of brain.

    3. Auckland needs less busy bodies (including local board interference) not more! All the petty politics is the very reason nothing ever gets done in Auckland. We’re stuck on a vortex of power plays and endless consultation.

        1. In this instance, the local board (Waitemata) is the voice of sanity. The trees in question are in their territory and they are trying to stop them being destroyed by AT’s unimaginative junction design. When you say ‘endless consultation’, presumably what you are referring to is ‘consultation’. If there wasn’t any, no checks and balances, unelected ‘public servants’ (AT) would be able to get away with murder and cover the whole city in asphalt.

        2. David – in this instance I agree. However in my experience the Council and AT lack clear decision making processes with the result being all and sundry have to be consulted on everything. Not a very efficient way of operating. In another case – parking on arterials, the local boards have been stifling progress for years when the legal position is that they have no authority at all.

    4. I have to disagree with your view about our public servants. Classifying groups of people as “control freaks and neo nazis” is neither helpful, fair, or accurate. In my experience, most of the people working within Auckland Council, Auckland Transport, and assorted other agencies are well-intentioned and competent. I don’t _always_ agree with the outcomes, but I also accept that not everyone shares my values and preferences.

      I do think it’s a good thing for the public to become more educated and more aware about how and why policy is made. But that’s not going to happen if we insist upon demonising the people doing the work.

  9. The reason I am interested in urban design and urban transport is because I am interested in quality of place. I know some people don’t care but i really want to live in an Auckland that is a beautiful place. And any motorway that has more than two lanes each way is not part of that vision. I have really hated our ever widening motorways for about 50 years now and greatly enjoy this blog for the attempt that is being made by contributors for the rational and always optimistic corrections to the incredibly bad planning decisions of the 1950’s and beyond.

  10. “Dont trust the traffic models” I have built dozens of traffic models and reviewed hundreds of others and I now think I could do a better job of predicting the future by killing a bird and examining its entrails!

    1. Hilarious. Ever since entering the transport profession about a decade ago I’ve struggled with the empirical practices, which – as my colleague Jarrett Walker pointed out to me – all seem to be founded on an implicit assumption that “children will behave exactly like their parents”. He then went to argue that social/cultural evolution of any form invalidated this assumption.

    2. highly excellent post dude. I’m going to regurgitate this material in various forms and formats for the next wee while (I’ll just try and make sure I credit you this time!)

  11. Not unique to traffic engineering, I see this disconnect every day – the “decision makers” don’t have the time, inclination or ability to understand the options and considerations in more detail, and the “doers” don’t have the time, inclination or ability to communicate the situation in terms that the decision makers can understand.

    1. That’s dead on. The disconnect between technical experts, decision-makers, and customers/the public can be observed in many areas of public policy and private sector activities. As I said at the end of the post, I’d make the same recommendations within my profession.

  12. And unless someone of talent and quality breaks the cycle it all too easily slips into the technocrats saying they are just doing what the politicians or other superiors want and the politicians or bosses saying they are only okaying what the technicians advise…. So it goes.

    1. Some pretty telling stuff there all right, I read this document from the independent assessor (Leo Hills) – report here: http://www.aucklandcouncil.govt.nz/SiteCollectionDocuments/aboutcouncil/hearings/820greatnorthrdapphleohillsfinalrpt.pdf
      Which was only finalised on 17 September (just two days after an AT document not previously made available, appears from nowhere).

      [I quote from bottom of Page 5 of the Hills report]:

      ” additional information has been provided by Auckland Transport including a memo entitled “SH16 St Lukes WRR Project – alternative option Summary” dated 15 September 2014. In particular this document provides the benefits and dis-benefits of all alternative options considered together with more detailed diagram of Option 4. This document does provide a comparison between different options assessed in one simple document with similar levels of detail.”

      This “magic” AT document is where all the options proposed are assessed and reasons for their unsuitability are documented to similar levels of detail (which Option 4, previously discarded, was pointed out by Leo Hills as simply not having been asessed to the same level as the others).

      This document supposedly, not only documents AT’s thinking on the options, it also forms the actual basis on which Leo Hills response/review accepts the selected option proposed by AT as valid
      – within the limitation that its up to the requiring authorities (AT/NZTA) to ultimately make and justify their decision, not for Leo Hills to do so.

      I believe, it will end up that this is a key document whose assessments/details/decisions and also its timing of release – that AT / NZTA will have to defend in the Environment Court.

      I reckon this document from AT should form a key part of any appeal process to the Environment Court.

      The fact that this document was only presented very late in the piece to Leo Hills (and only after quite legitimate RMA S92 questions were raised by Hill), and was dated 15 September – a mere 2 days before Hills final report was produced – is *very* interesting in itself, as this indicates/suggests that the information in it was not able to be readily provided previously for all options equally.

      It therefore also raises the very big question, did this information ever get presented in the same clear and concise format to the hearings panel? And if not, doesn’t that mean that the the Hearings Panel were wilfully made blind by AT by lack of such document?

      This smacks of the same “artful dodging” that NZTA did on the Basin Reserve Flyover alternatives, for which NZTA was shown to have invested no time in any real alternatives to the flyover, and for which the Environment Court kicked NZTAs arse very badly for doing.

      This does nothing but suggest that the shoddy process followed to date, was even shoddier than was thought.

      It seems the only safe course of action for AT here is to build the single left turn lane as previously consented, leave the trees standing.
      Then review the whole thing down the track – just like the Reeves Road Flyover is.
      After all, as the Leo Hill reports note – the benefits of the 2nd left turn lane accrue only if the 2026 traffic volumes are correct, and only for a short period of time, in the 2 hour PM peak, and only for those turning in St Lukes Road.

      The alternative is that they risk having their arses kicked by the Environment Court.

      So whaddya say AT? Perhaps discretion is the better part of valour here and so why not withdraw the NOR now and save everyone time and money?

  13. What is the role of an engineer (policy executor) and a politician (policy creator)?

    Well, in a good system i.e. the one we supposedly have in New Zealand, the politician (policy creator) identifies desired outcomes (and possibly desired outputs, but not process and/or inputs) and then engages in a budgeting discussion with the engineer (executor) about resourcing.

    E.g.
    Politician: I need you to reduce unemployment by 2% over 10 years (or possibly I need you to hold 5,000 employment counselling meetings per year if taking an output rather than outcome approach)
    Engineer: That will cost $100
    Politician: I only want to spend $80
    Engineer: OK, we can get 1.5% reducion or 4,000 meetings per year.

    At this point the engineer identifies the process and detailed inputs necessary to deliver that outcome/outputs.

    It is NOT THE ROLE of the politician to engage in micro-level management including the selection of means (processes and inputs). If the politician has specified the outcome correctly then that’s his/her role over. Politicians aren’t specialists and when politicians intervene in specialist topics (e.g. Hitler and Stalin interfering with professional soldiers) the result is poor. It leads to sub-optimal decision-making and an ignorance of the actual result desired.

    When politicians drop down, the big picture gets lost. And what do we see in Auckland? We see constant focus on projects (inputs and processes) rather than results (outcomes). We see project fixation (the CRL) rather than result fixation (reducing average transit times by x%). It’s not conducive to efficient or effective government.

    What our mayor and council needs to do is say:
    1. Reduce average transit time by x
    2. Reduce injury accidents by y
    3. Reduce carbon use by z

    And that’s it.

    1. It is just as correct for a politician to say “preserve trees on public land” That is just as relevant as reducing travel time by some arbitrary value. Politicians are accountable to the people in a way appointed officials are not. That is the crux of the problem at AT- not enough elected politicians. But the appointed people are doing their level best to reduce representation not increase it.

      “Men by their constitutions are naturally divided into two parties: 1. Those who fear and distrust the people, and wish to draw all powers from them into the hands of the higher classes. 2. Those who identify themselves with the people, have confidence in them, cherish and consider them as the most honest and safe, although not the most wise depositary of the public interests.” Thomas Jefferson 1824

    2. Maths, unfortunately your tidy idea of how the world works is exactly part of the problem; not all things in life are quantifiable. The value of these trees for example, cannot be reduced to a number that can be weighed against the math spat-out by the traffic model. A set of numbers, I might add, that are in turn the result of a whole lot of qualitative judgements made by those designing the model. Despite the determination by some to simply ignore everything not easily reduced to some kind of metric, it is simply impossible to get to good outcomes by ignoring values that are hard to quantify.

      Anyway there are fashions even in what we count, a good way to tell what a culture values is to examinethis. Tellingly for years there were no, or very few, pedestrian counts in Auckland, yet every vehicle is careful added up, and anxieties about how many there may be here in 11 years on a week-day afternoon are apparently what is driving this project. And of course this becomes self-fulfilling, we are about to spend tens of millions of dollars and an unknowable quantity of place quality to accommodate these future vehicles, so unlike possible future cycling and walking trips here, they’re much more likely to turn up- because we will have already built for them. Put out the welcome mat.

      So the engineers’ job simply becomes to prove the model as accurate as possible by building for it. Insanely circular.

      1. I agree Patrick. By designing high quality transit, cycling and walking not in the design at all but designing for cars only gets that…cars and space inhabitable for anything else. Now a full 180 degree scenario designing for those outcomes gets you those outcomes in the other modes. OK let’s throw desired outcomes like Copenhagen cycle mode share, our CBD bus mode share and high walking mode share into the base model but do it citywide and adapt road layouts, intersection treatments to suit and did a full 180 degree not look at projections from worst practice. We have the skills, resources to turn this whole city liveable in no time, just everyone buying into the city vision in particular NZTA…AT starting to turn the wheel.

        1. To have better outcomes you need to design for better outcomes. For community well being and sustainability in fact all of the IPENZ ethics put up ultimate targets for all modes. Then if the focus is truly the sustainable, liveable modes then car mode definitely is sky rocketing….downwards.

  14. I agree with mfwic with regards to modelling. If I were to take a random stab at what happened it would be this:

    Engineer A: “Lets throw a bone to those crazy walking people and put pedestrian lights on the NE slip lane. Plus lets put in a bus lane to help those crazy bus people.”

    Engineer B: “That’s a great idea! Lets just do a model first to check we don’t affect vehicles….. Computer says no! There’s going to be queues for Africa!”

    Engineer A: “Ok lets put in two lanes on the slip lane then we will get shorter queues…..yes! The model says it will work!”
    Engineer B: “So we just need to find the space to fit the bus lane in….hmm…”

    Engineer A: “Well we are in luck because there is space right here, just some grass and some old trees. We got plenty of those around so we can just get rid of those.”
    Engineer B: “Yay. Problem solved. Everyone will be happy. Arent we the greatest!”

  15. Thanks, MFD, – I learnt a new thing. Obeying a law isn’t necessarily wrong though, and it doesn’t invalidate Nemesis’s point that not all of your engineer friends are good. The engineer that worked on my house tried to rip me off (so I know that bad engineers do exist, actually 100% of the ones I’ve worked with). Had you been at the meeting he refers to you would have seen engineers (actually I left after the first one) speaking with absolute disregard for the feelings of the people in the community, which is what Nazis did in WW2.

    I don’t think he was suggesting that engineers cannot think logically, (clearly that’s their job, which I think is your point) but the outcome of making every decision based purely on ‘logic’ (e.g. traffic projections which might be completely wrong, trees that appear to have a value of $0) can be illogical.

    It is likely that most engineers are competent and work with integrity, but they are implicated in this illogical design and AT’s procedures aren’t transparent enough to determine whether an engineer or someone else is responsible for creating the problem. To an outsider it certainly looks a lot like bad engineering but it could conceivably be the fault of a few bosses who are not engineers. This kind of stuff-up does tend to bring engineering in general and road engineers in particular into disrepute.

    1. “speaking with absolute disregard for the feelings of the people in the community, which is what Nazis did in WW2”

      No, the Nazis invaded the rest of Europe and committed genocide against the Jews and several other groups. That’s not the same thing at all, and it’s really, really offensive to state otherwise.

      Please, let’s not have any more invocations of Godwin’s Law.

        1. Hmm, so, if you are Daleks, what is it that you are “exterminating”? 🙂

          Congestion? We still have lots of that on our roads.

          Humans? Maybe – the road toll suggests that this is partly true.

          The entire Planet? Yes – that seems about right.

      1. [Editor’s note: This comment was originally much longer and made some reasonably good points. However, it was necessary to delete most of it, as it also tried to defend the neo-Nazi comparison. This is NOT ON.]

        We all inherently and intuitively know what is right on most issues and we need to give those who aren’t listening a wake up call. Some wake up calls are gentle and reflective, while others are traumatic and violent; each are turning points in our forward journey. The trees inevitably will be a turning point.

        1. I really appreciate that. Aside from the bad wording choices, I do think that you raised some good points. I hope you will continue to contribute!

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