Yuck! I’ll exercise my freedom not to even try to be positive about it. Cutting an ugly swathe through the community, just llike that horrible Kapiti Expressway down our way. There are so many superior alternatives to this sort of thing but good Old New Zealand is still caught in its 1960’s time warp. Depressing that so many kiwis have no other vision.
You are so right. Superior alternatives for people not cars. Time for new governance from MOT/ NZTA that puts people first. So many proven solutions , electric trains wow, electric light rail Melbourne for small distances where not by heavy rail and where buses wont cope, busways like North Shore 40% passengers by bus on bridge, and that isn’t even full length, separated cycle paths 41% mode share. If the solution is longer term needs to have benefit cost over a greater period and maybe borrow longer term so stacks up. Those are the proven fixes don’t waste money, resources pushing the car wagon , not proven anywhere. This Civil Engineer says do a 180 deg and focus on engineering ethics, and community, change manual.
Not quite, most people here don’t “want cars”, they “need cars” – as the current system gives no other choices for getting around with modes other than cars, so guess what, they obviously go and buy a car or two.
As the PT usage stats show – if you build a modern PT system with reliable services, and decent frequency, people ditch their cars and use PT in droves.
A lot of people think they want motorways instead of public transport because they have been fed a solid diet of motorways for the past 50 years and don’t know anything else.
Or for the same price could have a full network of Copenhagen lanes and 41% cycle mode share, and quarter the rapid busways with at least 31% mode share put that in the Waterview model. That would have made the road before look too big, but now oh dear. Sustainable, no, good for future generations no, good for community welfare no, good for the environment, no. Isn’t that all the professional engineering ethics or have I missed some out.
Regarding photo 2 captioned “Don’t you love the little stub road with cycle lanes on either side”: would there be a reason that the pedestrian bridge over the motorway was built right behind the buildings, and not about 50m to the left where it would have lined up directly with better access on both sides? Landscaping maybe?
The bridge was constructed along with the motorway extension through Mt Roskill (the extension opened in 2009, I can’t recall if the bridge opened at the same time or perhaps a bit earlier). Back then, the new motorway extension initially terminated at a roundabout that connected to the stub road, hence one of the reasons why the bridge is where it is.
Yes, looking back through historic imagery shows that there was a big round about in the way, so they built the bridge 60m further south with a big dogleg to avoid the roundabout. Now the roundabout is gone and it actually makes me ill thinking about the location of the bridge. it adds almost 2 minutes to a pedestrian journey! Hundreds of millions can be spent on a roading project to reduce travel times by that much! Its like they were forced to put the pedestrian bridge in and so they purposefully put it in an obnoxious spot just so they could go “see told you so” when hardly anyone uses it. It really does make me ill thinking about the wasted money and the permanence of that shitty design decision.
Firstly there is the $500m interchange up the road from this to provide a very expensive place for cars to queue at a ramp meter and then there’s always another motorway to be built, the one that truly honestly is going to fix it all.
The new East-West link motorway through Onehunga is the next new motorway that suddenly top priority for funding in Auckland, then there’s dozens of defacto motorways being built around Auckland as highways, there’s no end in sight to vast sums being poured into roads. And I almost forgot the next white elephant the $5 billion additional Waitemata Harbour crossing, another monomodal disaster perpetuationg the mess Auckland is in and will remain in for the foreseeable future. Liveable as if.
The only way is to sue for damages and fix the whole thing up we can go back to the letter from the professional engineer from the USA who we requested advice from advising build public transport at the same time. How many years ago was that 1952? Then someone destroy that traffic model by train running over it, then bus, then cycle, then stomped on, then incinerated.
I’m placing my bets that the road building lobby will move on from “must complete Auckland’s motorway network” to “must complete the North Island’s motorway network”.
After all, they have a lot of capital tied up in heavy machinery for making big roads and a lot of employees whose main expertise lies in the design and construction of big roads. What are they all going to do when Waterview is finished?
SH18 to SH1 is *now* the final bit, but when Waterview was being consented and all the way up until recently (after it started), the MoT, NZTA, and AT were all saying Waterview was “completing the motorway” – as originally planned.
Of course, as Waterview is underway, we suddenly need another project to work on hence the dragging of SH18/SH1 out of the hat as the new final bit, when its done, there will be another final bit and then one after that.
“I dont get why people keep claiming that Waterview is the last bit.”
“Completing a motorway ring route around the city, it will unlock Auckland’s potential to become a truly world class city, combatting regional congestion and creating a direct, time-saving link between the International Airport and CBD.”
“The $1.4b Waterview Connection is being constructed by the NZ Transport Agency and is New Zealand’s largest and most ambitious roading project… to complete Auckland’s Western Ring Route – an alternative to the Southern and Northern Motorways along SH1 through the central city.”
“Besides completing the Western Ring Route, the Waterview Connection…”
Thanks Conan now I understand why. Some numpty at NZTA said it on their website. But from the moment they pushed the Paul Matthews to SH1 part out to the end of the project that became the last piece.
Not just “some rumpty at NZTA” making a suggestion, NZTA and others said this to the Environment court at the consent hearings.
That is more relevant to this than your assertion of “trust me” I know differently”.
So either, the NZTA and also their political masters were lying when they said it? or have NZTA and co simply moved the goal posts again?
I sat through the Notice of Requirement hearings for the SH18 Upper Harbour to SH1 section where they told commissioners they would do the Paul Matthews to SH1 section at the end. If they hadn’t said that they would not have met their own objectives of a motorway standard ring route.
The irony is that it’s called the Waterview connection, built by the Well connected alliance, yet Waterview, Mt Albert and Point Chev, (who will be most effected by the project) get no new onramps – so will be not so well connected!
already underway down the whole length, then 8, it never ends, as increasing roadspace induces congestion, doesn’t solve it. It’s the perfect business to be in, the more you do the more you argue is needed….. what is this business model based on?, oh yes, illegal drug supply…..
In a way I think water view will be a good bit of infrastructure when its finished, but can not help but think they could of done without all those big ugly overpasses at waterview, maybe gone under the NW motorway and had on off ramps come from underneath would of been far nicer.
But it is depressing thinking that they want to also build that exact monstrosity on the north shore. And what is it all for??? So more people can drive to work, wtf And that new upper harbour highway will be used to develop all that farm land into another suburb with not even a plan for rapid transit, So if the government has there way Auckland will be stuck in worsening conjunction for eternity LOL
The battle for the Pohutukawa 6 is the start of the public stating that they want a different future, but I’m pretty sure that it’ll be a while and a number of other battles over similar issues, before the pendulum swings in a direction that the most readers of this blog would be comfortable with.
You are right Nik the whole transport industry needs to do a full 180 degree at maximum velocity not putting car first and design for people, people on bikes, more people in high capacity modes, then the people in low capacity vehicles which already have a full network. Make the most of what we have already built by changing layout and telling network operations to make the above new priority take precedence. Then with Capex complete any.missing network. Apart from CRL, make cycle and bus the priority until up fully. Then everyone has mode choices, everyone including kids can cycle, then carry on with the Congestion Free Network with maybe additional light rail on forecasted bus congested routes. Then all our budget and engineering expertise working in a full direction of what is best overall. Contractors will adjust, just give the guys and girls the right plan, and that starts at the top NZTA, AT and other councils.
Somehow I think there would be.more of a celebration, not any regret if the entire city had separated cycling and everyone’s kids could cycle to school by themselves without the need to be driven there. Now that would have ticked all the Engineering Ethic boxes plus some and probably taken Auckland to No1 and reduced congestion citywide in one go , which this project at $1.4b won’t do .
Driving under the overpasses is awe-inspiring. The engineering is mind boggling.
The Waterview connection will add a robustness to the Auckland network that no other project could.
As for the future we have an undeveloped roading network in the North Island. Covering the Auckland – Wellington distance in the UK takes around 6-6 1/2 hours in the UK. Last time I did it here it took around 7 1/2 hours. That may have improved since the Hamilton & Taupo bypasses but there is little doubt that our roading network needs improvement across the north island.
I think what is needed to complete this awe inspiring scenic wonderland gifted to us by the taxpayer via the National Party and its friends is a couple of other 1950’s visual symphony icons! 1) A Coal fired power station burning real coal say like Battersea on the foreshore by Pt Chev and the south bound off ramp 2) That other favourite of the day, an open rubbish dump reclaiming the mangroves between Waterview and Avondale, just like the good ol’ days at Meola Rd.
God I miss the stench and the in your face man over nature triumphs of that era. Nirvana would have been reached.
and i can get from London to edinburgh in 4 hours on a train, a similar distance to auckland to wellington. And it will arrive on time, not 3 hours late, and not regularly cancelled half way and transferred to buses. And 4 hours is too long so they are putting high speed rail in!
There is little doubt the public transport network needs massive improvement across the north island. Your road network is dreamy in comparison.
Yes, but: relevant to point out that England is so flat compared to New Zealand, with rolling downs rather than volcanic / fault driven hilly terrain in NZ, as well as that they have over ten times more population in half the space. Could be one of the reasons why we haven’t built a high speed train network. We’ve built an airline instead…
And let’s not forget that Great Britain has 13 times the population and more than 13 times the economy in about the same area!
Perhaps that also has something to do with lack of highspeed motorway the length of the country that the OP was complaining about?
Ps they have planes in the uk too, its not an either/or choice.
New Zealand seems to have a transport policy equivalent to feeding an obese person cake then continually buying them wider trousers and a bigger belt, and then wondering why they are not losing any weight.
Interesting article by Brian Rudman in herald page A23 today recommending 2 members added to AT Board who are regular public transport users be the only tinkering not removing councillors.
Please forgive my ignorance, as I do not live in Auckland, but I thought that the Waterview Connection was put underground so that Auckland did not have to have roads through at ground level. Therefore, what are the roads in the pictures at ground level? I’m presuming that on completion of the tunnel, they will get torn up and removed, and the area planted or built on? Yes? No ? If they are not torn up – then what is the point of the tunnel?
The pictures show either end of the motorway, there is a faily long stretch of tunnel in between. So yes it is more roads and ramps at each end, and nothing getting torn up, but at least through the middle they aren’t slicing up too much housing and parkland for a surface motorway.
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The scale of this project is just incredible o.O
Thats cute…
try stepping out of NZ to see some real mega projects…
Yuck! I’ll exercise my freedom not to even try to be positive about it.
Cutting an ugly swathe through the community, just llike that horrible Kapiti Expressway down our way.
There are so many superior alternatives to this sort of thing but good Old New Zealand is still caught in its 1960’s time warp.
Depressing that so many kiwis have no other vision.
You are so right. Superior alternatives for people not cars. Time for new governance from MOT/ NZTA that puts people first. So many proven solutions , electric trains wow, electric light rail Melbourne for small distances where not by heavy rail and where buses wont cope, busways like North Shore 40% passengers by bus on bridge, and that isn’t even full length, separated cycle paths 41% mode share. If the solution is longer term needs to have benefit cost over a greater period and maybe borrow longer term so stacks up. Those are the proven fixes don’t waste money, resources pushing the car wagon , not proven anywhere. This Civil Engineer says do a 180 deg and focus on engineering ethics, and community, change manual.
except the people want cars…
Not quite, most people here don’t “want cars”, they “need cars” – as the current system gives no other choices for getting around with modes other than cars, so guess what, they obviously go and buy a car or two.
As the PT usage stats show – if you build a modern PT system with reliable services, and decent frequency, people ditch their cars and use PT in droves.
A lot of people think they want motorways instead of public transport because they have been fed a solid diet of motorways for the past 50 years and don’t know anything else.
Rather that than a flyover at the basin reserve.
Or for the same price could have a full network of Copenhagen lanes and 41% cycle mode share, and quarter the rapid busways with at least 31% mode share put that in the Waterview model. That would have made the road before look too big, but now oh dear. Sustainable, no, good for future generations no, good for community welfare no, good for the environment, no. Isn’t that all the professional engineering ethics or have I missed some out.
Regarding photo 2 captioned “Don’t you love the little stub road with cycle lanes on either side”: would there be a reason that the pedestrian bridge over the motorway was built right behind the buildings, and not about 50m to the left where it would have lined up directly with better access on both sides? Landscaping maybe?
The bridge was constructed along with the motorway extension through Mt Roskill (the extension opened in 2009, I can’t recall if the bridge opened at the same time or perhaps a bit earlier). Back then, the new motorway extension initially terminated at a roundabout that connected to the stub road, hence one of the reasons why the bridge is where it is.
Yes, looking back through historic imagery shows that there was a big round about in the way, so they built the bridge 60m further south with a big dogleg to avoid the roundabout. Now the roundabout is gone and it actually makes me ill thinking about the location of the bridge. it adds almost 2 minutes to a pedestrian journey! Hundreds of millions can be spent on a roading project to reduce travel times by that much! Its like they were forced to put the pedestrian bridge in and so they purposefully put it in an obnoxious spot just so they could go “see told you so” when hardly anyone uses it. It really does make me ill thinking about the wasted money and the permanence of that shitty design decision.
Without wishing to offend anyone, I wouldn’t want to live around there. The tallest part is still to come. Looks like an L.A. freeway. Yuk!
At last when it’s finally open we can celebrate the completion of the motorway network and move on from that phase.
How likely do you think that is really ?
I wish it were true, but there would need to be a mind shift/paradigm shift that I don’t see happening.
Close to zero unfortunately.
Firstly there is the $500m interchange up the road from this to provide a very expensive place for cars to queue at a ramp meter and then there’s always another motorway to be built, the one that truly honestly is going to fix it all.
The new East-West link motorway through Onehunga is the next new motorway that suddenly top priority for funding in Auckland, then there’s dozens of defacto motorways being built around Auckland as highways, there’s no end in sight to vast sums being poured into roads. And I almost forgot the next white elephant the $5 billion additional Waitemata Harbour crossing, another monomodal disaster perpetuationg the mess Auckland is in and will remain in for the foreseeable future. Liveable as if.
The only way is to sue for damages and fix the whole thing up we can go back to the letter from the professional engineer from the USA who we requested advice from advising build public transport at the same time. How many years ago was that 1952? Then someone destroy that traffic model by train running over it, then bus, then cycle, then stomped on, then incinerated.
I’m placing my bets that the road building lobby will move on from “must complete Auckland’s motorway network” to “must complete the North Island’s motorway network”.
After all, they have a lot of capital tied up in heavy machinery for making big roads and a lot of employees whose main expertise lies in the design and construction of big roads. What are they all going to do when Waterview is finished?
Not at all. The SH18 to SH1 link is the last bit of the ring route. I dont get why people keep claiming that Waterview is the last bit.
SH18 to SH1 is *now* the final bit, but when Waterview was being consented and all the way up until recently (after it started), the MoT, NZTA, and AT were all saying Waterview was “completing the motorway” – as originally planned.
Of course, as Waterview is underway, we suddenly need another project to work on hence the dragging of SH18/SH1 out of the hat as the new final bit, when its done, there will be another final bit and then one after that.
“I dont get why people keep claiming that Waterview is the last bit.”
“Completing a motorway ring route around the city, it will unlock Auckland’s potential to become a truly world class city, combatting regional congestion and creating a direct, time-saving link between the International Airport and CBD.”
“The $1.4b Waterview Connection is being constructed by the NZ Transport Agency and is New Zealand’s largest and most ambitious roading project… to complete Auckland’s Western Ring Route – an alternative to the Southern and Northern Motorways along SH1 through the central city.”
“Besides completing the Western Ring Route, the Waterview Connection…”
http://www.nzta.govt.nz/projects/waterviewconnection/
Don’t forget about Grafton Gully stage 3!
Thanks Conan now I understand why. Some numpty at NZTA said it on their website. But from the moment they pushed the Paul Matthews to SH1 part out to the end of the project that became the last piece.
Not just “some rumpty at NZTA” making a suggestion, NZTA and others said this to the Environment court at the consent hearings.
That is more relevant to this than your assertion of “trust me” I know differently”.
So either, the NZTA and also their political masters were lying when they said it? or have NZTA and co simply moved the goal posts again?
I sat through the Notice of Requirement hearings for the SH18 Upper Harbour to SH1 section where they told commissioners they would do the Paul Matthews to SH1 section at the end. If they hadn’t said that they would not have met their own objectives of a motorway standard ring route.
The irony is that it’s called the Waterview connection, built by the Well connected alliance, yet Waterview, Mt Albert and Point Chev, (who will be most effected by the project) get no new onramps – so will be not so well connected!
First shot shows a lovely little 4-lane motorway. How long before there’s a new project to increase it to 6 lanes ?
already underway down the whole length, then 8, it never ends, as increasing roadspace induces congestion, doesn’t solve it. It’s the perfect business to be in, the more you do the more you argue is needed….. what is this business model based on?, oh yes, illegal drug supply…..
In a way I think water view will be a good bit of infrastructure when its finished, but can not help but think they could of done without all those big ugly overpasses at waterview, maybe gone under the NW motorway and had on off ramps come from underneath would of been far nicer.
But it is depressing thinking that they want to also build that exact monstrosity on the north shore. And what is it all for??? So more people can drive to work, wtf
And that new upper harbour highway will be used to develop all that farm land into another suburb with not even a plan for rapid transit,
So if the government has there way Auckland will be stuck in worsening conjunction for eternity LOL
I wouldn’t be LOLing, I’d be crying.
The battle for the Pohutukawa 6 is the start of the public stating that they want a different future, but I’m pretty sure that it’ll be a while and a number of other battles over similar issues, before the pendulum swings in a direction that the most readers of this blog would be comfortable with.
You are right Nik the whole transport industry needs to do a full 180 degree at maximum velocity not putting car first and design for people, people on bikes, more people in high capacity modes, then the people in low capacity vehicles which already have a full network. Make the most of what we have already built by changing layout and telling network operations to make the above new priority take precedence. Then with Capex complete any.missing network. Apart from CRL, make cycle and bus the priority until up fully. Then everyone has mode choices, everyone including kids can cycle, then carry on with the Congestion Free Network with maybe additional light rail on forecasted bus congested routes. Then all our budget and engineering expertise working in a full direction of what is best overall. Contractors will adjust, just give the guys and girls the right plan, and that starts at the top NZTA, AT and other councils.
Somehow I think there would be.more of a celebration, not any regret if the entire city had separated cycling and everyone’s kids could cycle to school by themselves without the need to be driven there. Now that would have ticked all the Engineering Ethic boxes plus some and probably taken Auckland to No1 and reduced congestion citywide in one go , which this project at $1.4b won’t do .
Driving under the overpasses is awe-inspiring. The engineering is mind boggling.
The Waterview connection will add a robustness to the Auckland network that no other project could.
As for the future we have an undeveloped roading network in the North Island. Covering the Auckland – Wellington distance in the UK takes around 6-6 1/2 hours in the UK. Last time I did it here it took around 7 1/2 hours. That may have improved since the Hamilton & Taupo bypasses but there is little doubt that our roading network needs improvement across the north island.
I think what is needed to complete this awe inspiring scenic wonderland gifted to us by the taxpayer via the National Party and its friends is a couple of other 1950’s visual symphony icons!
1) A Coal fired power station burning real coal say like Battersea on the foreshore by Pt Chev and the south bound off ramp
2) That other favourite of the day, an open rubbish dump reclaiming the mangroves between Waterview and Avondale, just like the good ol’ days at Meola Rd.
God I miss the stench and the in your face man over nature triumphs of that era. Nirvana would have been reached.
If you are in Hamilton on the way to Wellington you are lost.
and i can get from London to edinburgh in 4 hours on a train, a similar distance to auckland to wellington. And it will arrive on time, not 3 hours late, and not regularly cancelled half way and transferred to buses. And 4 hours is too long so they are putting high speed rail in!
There is little doubt the public transport network needs massive improvement across the north island. Your road network is dreamy in comparison.
Yes, but: relevant to point out that England is so flat compared to New Zealand, with rolling downs rather than volcanic / fault driven hilly terrain in NZ, as well as that they have over ten times more population in half the space. Could be one of the reasons why we haven’t built a high speed train network. We’ve built an airline instead…
And let’s not forget that Great Britain has 13 times the population and more than 13 times the economy in about the same area!
Perhaps that also has something to do with lack of highspeed motorway the length of the country that the OP was complaining about?
Ps they have planes in the uk too, its not an either/or choice.
New Zealand seems to have a transport policy equivalent to feeding an obese person cake then continually buying them wider trousers and a bigger belt, and then wondering why they are not losing any weight.
Interesting article by Brian Rudman in herald page A23 today recommending 2 members added to AT Board who are regular public transport users be the only tinkering not removing councillors.
Please forgive my ignorance, as I do not live in Auckland, but I thought that the Waterview Connection was put underground so that Auckland did not have to have roads through at ground level. Therefore, what are the roads in the pictures at ground level? I’m presuming that on completion of the tunnel, they will get torn up and removed, and the area planted or built on? Yes? No ?
If they are not torn up – then what is the point of the tunnel?
The pictures show either end of the motorway, there is a faily long stretch of tunnel in between. So yes it is more roads and ramps at each end, and nothing getting torn up, but at least through the middle they aren’t slicing up too much housing and parkland for a surface motorway.