In my predictions for 2015 I didn’t include that a elected official would make a fool of themselves but I should have – although in hindsight I guess it was inevitable. What can’t be predicted was that it would happen barely a few days into the new year. The honour for this idiocy goes none other than Auckland Councillor Dick Quax who in replying to a tweet from Luke about making Sylvia Park more sustainable said this gem.
@lukechristensen @BenRoss_AKL @Brycepearce no one in the entire western world uses the train for their shopping trips
— Dick Quax (@DickQuax) January 3, 2015
Franktly it’s such an absurd comment it deserves ridicule. What’s more it wasn’t a one off as after a number of people replied telling him how wrong he was he made this comment.
@Brycepearce @lukechristensen @BenRoss_AKL the very idea that people lug home their weekly supermarket shopping on the train is fanciful
— Dick Quax (@DickQuax) January 3, 2015
and this one after Bryce mentions he gets groceries by bike.
@Brycepearce @lukechristensen @BenRoss_AKL sounds like that would make great Tui ad. "I ride my bike to get my weekly shopping – yeah right"
— Dick Quax (@DickQuax) January 3, 2015
For those not on Twitter, the number of replies and comments in relation to Dick’s comments has been huge. As many pointed out, in cities such as London, Paris and New York millions rely on PT, walking and cycling in their daily lives for not just getting to work but for socialising and shopping.
Unfortunately Dick seems to fall into the view that “you can only shop with a car”, a view that’s especially strong amongst retailers who almost universally call for more (free) parking. Yet interestingly research shows retailers generally overestimate how their customers get to their shops and that considerable numbers of people get to shopping areas without a car. Studies done in Graz, Austria in 1991 and repeated in Bristol, UK show this mismatch.
But what about local information? This research conducted for the NZTA on the reallocation of road space looks at the issue. It found that retailers in NZ were a little better at estimating shoppers transport modes but then that could be due to there being fewer viable options. Despite that it says
The data shows that sustainable transport users account for 40% of the total spend in the shopping areas and account for 37% of all shoppers who completed the survey. The data indicates the pedestrians and cyclists contribute a higher economic spend proportionately to the modal share and are important to the economic viability of local shopping areas.
The study also identified that retailers generally overestimate the importance of on-street parking outside shops. Shoppers value high-quality pedestrian and urban design features in shopping areas more than they value parking and those who drive are willing to walk to the shopping precinct from other locally available parking areas.
Considering how vehicle dominated most of our cities are and how high car mode share is on most other measures are – e.g.the census which only measures journeys to work – 37% shopping by non car means seems remarkably high.
Of course if you really want to, for much of your shopping you don’t even need to leave your house with online shopping getting more and more popular. At the end of the day there are two important things it would be worth Quax remembering.
- Cars don’t buy stuff, people do
- People are logical and most will use what is the easiest and most convenient method for them to get around.
Making PT, walking and cycling easier will mean more and more people will choose to use those modes for more trips, including to the shops.
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Most shopping trips aren’t to the supermarket or hardware store. They’re ones where you come home with 2 smallish bags. Easily done on the bus or train (or bike).
I lived for three years in Singapore and didn’t own a car… All my shopping was done either by bike, bus or by walking.
I’d love to do some research on this for Auckland. Great article thanks.
NZTA Research report 530 (mentioned above) already did this – it looked at sites in Akld, Wgtn and Chch
Who actually does a weekly shop now adays anyway?
I tend to shop at the supermarket once a week, and always have it delivered ($6 per delivery from local countdown). It’s a great service that saves heaps of time (and money because you can see exactly what you need). Then I do a few shops for perishables at other stores, always on bike or by foot.
I used to do the supermarket shop on my bike too but the online+delivery method is so much better.
I suppose the 20% of Londoners who don’t even own a car do their weekly shop by osmosis
Snap – you got there first.
20% of Londoners don’t own a car? It’s many more than that – try 46% of London *households* don’t even have a car.
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/technical-note-12-how-many-cars-are-there-in-london.pdf
He likely assumes that the only way to shop at the supermarket is the way he does – a carload of groceries every fortnight. But once you ditch the car and end up taking 3-4 bags home every few days, you find a couple of knock on benefits too. It’s faster, especially when you’re not dealing with queues on the weekends. You don’t end up buying stuff you don’t need and you can buy fresher food more frequently.
Although from what I know of Dick Quax, any evidence that people would prefer to do something differently to him would be steadfastly ignored.
Fully agree with post. Cars shouldn’t be the Centre of everything, people should be. Provide the full spectrum of transport choices and let the people decide, how to go anywhere or do anything including shopping. Also like the part about shop frontage and parking, it doesn’t need to be at front door when a small walk will do.
“In 2008, as many as 40 per cent of households in London did not own a car” ( http://www.uncsbrp.org/driving.htm )
… and presumably starved without being able to shop?
Over summer I have been using the bike more. Things like yesterday, popping down to the local Dick Smith / PBTech to pick up bits – fast and easy compared with taking a car, and that still counts as shopping, right?
Surprisingly, I just did a quick tote of recently shopping trips since Christmas, and most (70-80%) have been by foot or bike (motorbike or pushbike), with the exception being ‘weekly’ food shopping at the local supermarket. I accept I am unusual, but somewhat incredulous that some people use cars for every shopping trip including popping around the corner to the local diary
Still some way to go for retailers to better support cyclists; even peddling to the Torpedo 7 store in Albany (located in a sea of carparks), there was nowhere outside the store to chain up the bike while shopping. At least T7 responded to a tweet I made and promised better support in the future, but would like to see more of the old style bike racks in retail areas.
Thanks for publicising this, Matt – what a ghastly indictment of Cnr Quax’s total ignorance! These diatribes should disqualify him from voting on transport funding until he can show he’s joined the real world.
I’ve just been to the supermarket in Devonport – had trouble finding room in the bike rack as people return from holidays to do their food shopping by bike. A couple of panniers and you’re in business.
As more electric bikes join the roads on Waiheke, I’ve seen more of the same while holidaying over there.
@Sailor Boy – I think you’d still do a weekly shop if you’re in a suburban, PT-poor setting and had to drive 15-30 minutes to get your groceries. Otherwise, it’s easy to do 2-3 smaller shops, getting just a couple of bags’ worth each time.
Dick Quax is probably in such a suburban (exurban?) setting and surrounded by people that do the same as his family, and assumes it’s the only way, and can’t imagine carrying 10 bags of shopping home in one trip on the train. Taking two trips would seem inefficient if you’re not in a commerce/transit rich environment where actually it’s on your way home, etc.
Have a look at the two big Westfield outlets in London, both with rail stations.
Also I regularly travel by bus in the inner southeaster suburbs of Sydney and many people can be seen getting on buses with supermarket shopping. These suburbs have over 40% of people with no car.
Sylvia Park is a nightmare at times in and around it because of the slow crawl of cars and is best avoided at this time of the year. And the vast space taken up by car parks is truly ridiculous. But it is the one of the few big malls I do use as its accessible by train.
Yep, Sylvia Park was an absolute breeze by train on one of the days when the all the cars were parked on the roundabouts.. admittedly I did park up at a train station further up the line 😉
Sylvia Park, Lynn Mall and to a lesser degree WestCity are probably the easiest to access via train. WestCity could do so much better by actually acknowledging the rail line’s existence and adding an entrance on the station-facing side of the complex. Currently you’re forced to cross the road and navigate through the carpark to get inside. Pretty bad.
I do all the family grocery shopping on bicycle or scooter.
Shopping trollies are for sale everywhere in Auckland. And why….. because they sell well. Why….. because they can hold a lot more than 1 plastic bag; a range of people (eg less agile) can manipulate them easily and you can access buses & trains with them very easily. They are often NOT used with cars.
If i want something from the supermarket, i walk to the supermarket and buy it. If i buy a larger item that i cant carry id get it delivered. Every few weeks the household does an online shop.
I do not own a car.
To be fair ‘no one’ often is used to mean a statistically insignificant number of people, and in Auckland I imagine a significantly small number of households don’t own a car and use pt for all of their shopping. But to say no one in the western world is a very stupid comment by a person who obviously shouldn’t be making decisions on the future of our growing city.
I am astounded that we can find no one to stand against that neanderthal Quax. The fact that he was elected unopposed again shows the apathy of society in the face of ridiculousness and has led to a continuation of Auckland being held back from achieving it’s true potential.
+1.
The pitfalls of a small population. Much as Cities generate agglomeration benefits so do countries.
As politics in general seems to attract idiots with a loose understanding of cause and effect there are no guarantees but if there’s a case for outsourcing , Governance in NZ iis probably it.
Dick is out of touch with the changing reality. I lived in Germany for a while and never used a car to shop the entire time, but I shopped every other day. The rest of my life has been in Auckland and I have never used PT or a bike to shop, but I shop every fortnight with a big carload of stuff. Overall it is more time efficient to do that because of the way Auckland is built. But things are changing with these new metro supermarkets which will slowly proliferate.
Ari, how do you keep your fresh veges fresh? My wife and I walk to the supermarket every day or 2.
We have this amazing white appliance in the kitchen called a fridge. I hear a number of households have them nowadays.
There’s also some useful research by Jean Beetham out of Wellington, looking at the trade-off between new cycleways and on-street parking. One particularly interesting snippet:
“An additional survey of shoppers on Tory Street showed that only SIX PERCENT were using the on-street parking on Tory Street”
Read the report here: http://researcharchive.vuw.ac.nz/handle/10063/3757
I do most shopping by Bus, the only exceptions are big food shops (10+ bags) which I do 1-2 times a month and when I am buying a large item such as a Fridge, Large Furniture or TV etc.
I don’t want to beat up on Dick. He’s just expressing his, and those of his constituents, views. It’s quite something though that he extrapolates his view to not only everyone in New Zealand but also everyone in the entire western world. Wow, really Dick? Maybe you need to travel a bit and broaden your experience.
I often collected my groceries/shopping via train during my time in the UK and always walk to the supermarket/shops now I live in the city, as it seems do many people judging by how busy the New World and Countdown are in the cbd.
Sorry to drop their names but John Banks and Michelle Boag don’t seem to mind shopping this way. Maybe they could have a chat with him.
I hate metro countdown and new world metro, somewhat hate quay street countdown when its too busy also. Victoria Park New World and Richmond Road countdown are my usual places to shop food as they are a bit larger and don’t make you feel rushed and cramped, they also have more variety of products which you would otherwise miss.
They’re certainly horrid places to shop, but as far as convenience goes, they’re hard to beat.
Hopefully the replacement for the Downtown Shopping Centre will have a supermarket attached. Include an underground link to Britomart, and I could see it doing incredibly well.
Dan, if it did it would interestingly mirror the Japanese model. Many of the great department stores in Japan are owned by railway companies and are built on/by their terminal stations. Almost invariably, the first basement floor of those department stores is a supermarket, but generally laid out as a series of specialty food stands plus a general food supermarket.
What this means from a consumer perspective is that you know you can get what you need that night/the next day before you catch the train home (especially handy if your local station has fewer food choices). Something nice, something quick, or just the usual, whatever you want. The convenience and reliability works for consumers and retailers (the railway company). A real virtuous circle.
Never mind new supermarkets- the existing Countdown on Quay Street would do much better from Britomart & Takutai Square foot traffic if its pedestrian links to the west weren’t the absolute tragedy they are now.
The loading bay being where it is really limits any chances of improving the pedestrian links to any great degree. That would’ve been the perfect spot for another entrance.
Really? I preferred shopping in the metro stores. I usually shop every 2 days which is enough to need almost every aisle so not having to walk 1.5k to traverse the supermarket is great
Countdown Metro’s queues can reach truly epic proportions, that, tied with the associated depletion of stock levels is the reason that I prefer not to frequent it. Things have improved somewhat with the addition of more self-service points and general realignment of the checkout area, but it can still get really bad during peak use. At least the queue no longer stretches to the very end of the store, it only tends to get to the 3/4 mark now.
If you only ever go between 5 and 6pm you’re in for a bad time. 50% of my shopping was at the New World metro (2 minutes from my apartment), occasionally downtown countdown and ‘big’ shops (two heavy bags on my bike panniers) at Quay street on the weekend. Rarely before 8pm though – It’s not called the rat race for nothing!
While I hate to argue with a bloke in a tux, that post brought a couple of comments to mind.
One, that old rule that if the words “always” or “never” appear in a true/false question, the answer is false. “Entire” counts, too.
The statement, worded to shut down further discussion, does not reflect my own experience throughout the “western world”. (What about the “eastern world”? Don’t they count?) That experience being Paris, London, Moscow, Chicago, New York, San Francisco, Washington DC, and many other western world cities. Might NZ be behind the curve? After all, it is the 21st century.
Go to part 2.
I wonder what all those people who get off the train at Sylvia Park are actually going to do there?
I don’t think they would shop. They would just walk around the mall and not buy anything 😀
Part 2. (If a reply gets to a certain length the “post comment” button disappears.)
There are more kinds of shopping than groceries, as has been pointed out above. It is not at all unusual to see people (like myself for instance) on public transport with a Farmer’s bag or Postie bag or whatever, even two.
IF people aren’t using PT for shopping trips maybe – just maybe – it’s because the system isn’t convenient enough for them to do so.
Poor people are often forced to use PT to do their shopping regardless of inconvenience. Guess they don’t count, either.
Press ‘Tab’ a few times and it will ‘scroll’ the little frame down so that you can see the ‘Post Comment’ button. Seems to be a recent bug!
Heaps of families buy groceries at Westfield Henderson and take the train home to Ranui. I bet if there was better access from the mall to Henderson train station, it would be even more popular.
Wasn’t he one of the dicks that voted against the city rail link. Maybe he should go to spec savers as can’t see past his bonnet.
Forget the tui add it is spec savers and dick on the rail level crossing. Should have gone to spec savers.
I’ve seen my mother come back from the shops with the bicycle full of groceries every working day for 20 years. Fresh bread, veggies and newspaper every single day, by bicycle, in a western world country. And she owns a car…
Quax is useful in that he is dim enough and entitled enough to give voice to commonly help prejudices like these, usually stridently. It is good to have them articulated like this so they can be unpacked and dismantled, as Matt has above, and as is happening in the comments and on Twitter. I strongly recommend following him; he’s like a bot that generates any number of this sort of cliché. Funny guy.
In the sense of funny if it wasn’t so terrifying…
This is a great teachable moment. Quax definitely needs a European vacation. It’s a shame the Graz and Bristol graphics are also misleading – the icons (car, bike, bus, ped) have square area, so the size differences visually magnify the statistical change incorrectly and unnecessarily. (See Tufte VDQI chapter 2.)
Unbelievable. I visit supermarkets several times a week to get groceries (cans, meat, bottles – everything), travelling either by foot or PT. With supermarkets being so readily available these days (I have nine within 20 minutes of me – 11 if you count the CBD’s Metro variants), the notion that a “weekly shop” is still a necessity is just downright absurd.
Lucky you. I’ve only got three supermarkets within 20 minutes of walking/cycling/public transport from home, and no dedicated butchers or green grocers. One is notorious for not having fresh produce, one is the second most expensive supermarket in NZ and the other one is a Metro store, which is also ridiculously expensive.
I can only count so many due to the PT links.
Three is still a lot, and is indicative of the level of saturation these things are reaching. They keep building them, too.
Places like Glen Innes suddenly have two supermarkets within reach of a train station.
The supermarket at the CBD end of Victoria St provides no car parking at all. I often catch the bus in Victoria St with several people with 2/3 bags of groceries. They are usually heading to the apartment areas at the top of Symonds St. A few years ago when I was studying in Berlin the UBahn station I used had a supermarket attached and every day I joined many others in picking up 1 or 2 days fresh food before jumping on the bus to home. Quax is either a shill for the roading lobby, or has no idea how most of the world actually works now and how it will increasingly work in the future.
Does Dick Quax not see the irony in being someone who made their name running being so critical of active transport. But then maybe his definition of irony probably matches that of Alanis Morissette.
Interesting to note that none of the above comments refer to home delivery of groceries.
This is available in NZ and defiantly used in the UK.
Although this vaguely supports Dick’s claim in that the shopping is done by motor vehicle it does not reduce the impression that he is out of touch with the world and living in his own little bubble. Why someone doesn’t pop it and stand against him eludes me.
I have heard that Countdown claim that their on-line sales volume is equivalent to two large stores. Countdown will continue to have this market largely to themselves as the Foodstuffs co-operatively owned multi banner model makes it difficult for them to build an effective clicks & mortar online business that can compete effectively with Countdown.
You linked to Quax’s twitter feed. I read some of it. Please don’t EVER do that again.
He retweets links to Whaleoil. ‘Nuff said.
Herald Headline from 2020:
Olympian starves after losing license
Gosh, wasn’t Dick once a runner and fitness advocate prior to being an elected moron? Guess I’ll have to stop walking from Little Shoal Bay to Highbury via the fantastic bush tracks & take the car to shop in future so as not to be cast as an 1 percenter and funny weird old man, heaven forbid.
That just shows the real narrow-mindedness and lack of worldliness of Mr Quax. He should learn a bit about how the rest of the world operates. That might help him not make a fool of himself next time.
What about people who purchase big double fridges or other big items – king bed, lounge suite, BBQ? I can just imagine Dick shoving these in the back of his SUV.
In the last election he wasn’t elected as there was only two candidates standing for the two positions in the Howick Ward!
That must make him an unelected moron.
It also says quite a lot about the lack of interest in civics in those he purports to represent.
Dick Quax is a foundation member of the Build More Roads Brigade. These people see progress only in how many more roads are built each year, how more cars can be squeezed onto local roads and the building of more and bigger car parks. His attitude fits in well with the attitude of the present government.
Yes and like all those who think this way, he then goes on to complain about traffic congestion; the very thing his preferred world creates…..
Dick Quax provides quality entertainment for us…for all the wrong reasons, just like Tony Abbott and Kim Jong Un. It is true that it is nearly impossible to do one whole week’s worth of shopping at once, and then carry it on the train, bus, bike etc. Although I have the luxury of having a supermarket that is a fifteen minute walk away/four minute bike ride/two minutes by car, there are many who have to rely on their car for shopping as they don’t have the luxury of being close to the supermarket, or having a decent bus/train service to and from it, so naturally, they would drive.
I will never ever buy groceries online. Tried it once…never again! Avocados were rotten, apples had brown spots on them, had expired milk delivered to me, as well as $40 worth of meat that was meant to expire on the day. I went back to the supermarket and their customer service person didn’t want to hear about it.
As for charging people for parking at shops, I don’t believe that it should happen. If public transport, cycling routes and footpaths are good enough and convenient for people, they would use these modes. I only drive down to the supermarket if I needed to buy 5/10kg bags of rice, shopping with grandparents or if I’m doing a big shop. Otherwise I’d walk or bike.
I’ve been shopping online for about 2 years and never had the sort of problems you describe. Though I rarely buy fruit and vege from the supermarket (always been more expensive and worse quality than from a dedicated fruit shop). I find the service to be really great and easy — a shop typically takes 10-15 mins. And yes, this is my third post here saying the same! The more people using the service, the better it will be.
IIRC the total value of online shopping in the UK exceeded traditional shopping at least 10 years ago. Driven in large part by supermarket deliveries. As Dan says there are often deals available. I have never experienced the issues Richard describes ..in any event you can always refuse to take items at the door.
Cheers for that. I might give them another go if I’m really not bothered to go to the supermarket (won’t be buying perishable goods unseen though). After all, I have the luxury of being so close to the supermarket
Part 2.
Paying $13.25 for delivering $100-$200 worth of groceries is just ridiculous
Buy 20 deliveries (to be used in 6 months) and they cost $6 each, regardless of cost of groceries.
I don’t know. I value my time and, to me at least, that is an affordable way to do a large shop on the infrequent times we need to.
My elderly parents used on-line grocery shopping for several years. They lived close to a supermarket, but with Mum’s arthritis and Dad’s visual impairment they just stopped being able to manage it. Thanks to Seniornet they could manage the computer between them and they set up everything they needed for the regular items on a fortnightly basis and others weekly. The chap who delivered it was excellent, and would unpack it on the kitchen bench and put the frozen stuff in the freezer or fridge. They never had any problems with quality and it kept them independent for several extra years.
Online all the way, im nver going back to traditional big weekly shops. Never had many issues in the 4 years or so ive done it. Now New World also does it so some competition. My xmas turkey & food got dlivered for a whopping $2. Brilliant.
Chiming in here to prove I do exist – I do my weekly shopping by bike with a couple of panniers. When I lived in the CBD I used to use the bus sometimes too. Admittedly this is for one, not a family of four. But I have lived in Wellington, Nelson, Auckland, London, and elsewhere in the UK and the Netherlands and only ever done my shopping by car in Nelson.
Yes, I mean clearly people living in the eastern suburbs and most of the shore have little choice but to do their shopping by car, which is Dick’s experience. It’s just how he then considers that this is how everyone in the western world shops is the astonishing bit.
One of the things that pisses me off about current buses is that you have VERY little room to put your bags/packs.
When I take my backpack to work (standard 28L pack), I can’t fit it between my knees in the bus. It has to sit in my lap. Same with shopping
A little more leg room would make the bus WAY better for tasks other than just A-B commuting
And in the Herald it lands http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11382741
I think public transport might have got off lightly when you compare with Dick’s thoughts on other areas such as the Glen Innes community and the war-mongering Europeans. I would imagine many in his electorate would laud him for speaking his mind but when you marginalise decent law-abiding citizens through sweeping generalisations, particularly as an elected official, I have to wonder. Are the people of the Howick ward proud of him in doing this?
No they are not. Not when 48% on a primary vote voted for Len Brown as they wanted things (and told the Local Board and their hopeless MP Jami-Lee Ross who just dismissed it) like bus lanes down Pakuranga Road, bus priorities down Te Irirangi Drive, and maybe even a Sky Train.
Howick does deserve better even for a conservative Ward
“37% shopping by non car means seems remarkably high” Remember the NZTA study only looked at some shops on corridors and a couple of central city areas. If you looked at all shops including malls the non-car rate would likely be much lower.
But where are the car parks? 🙂
http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/64933721/Mini-supermarket-for-Wellingtons-Cable-Car-Lane