Winston Peters shows that he clearly doesn’t understand HOP – although I guess that shouldn’t be surprising
New Zealand First is urging SuperGold Cardholders who travel for free on Auckland public transport not to waste their money buying a prepaid card.
New Zealand First Leader Rt Hon Winston Peters says seniors are being pressured to spend $15 on an Auckland Transport prepaid HOP card and advises those who have done so to demand their money back.
“SuperGold Cardholders should demand their money back if they paid $5 for the card and the minimum $10 prepaid credit because the HOP card is simply an attack on the elderly.
“Auckland Transport’s HOP-card campaign has already signed up 11,129 SuperGold Cardholders.
“That means Auckland Transport has fleeced more than $166,000 from seniors who gain no advantage from buying the tag-on, tag-off card,” says Mr Peters, who introduced the SuperGold Card in 2007. “It is a grand confidence trick.”
“All they need for travel on the bus or for a train or ferry ticket is their SuperGold Card. They can travel free in Auckland from 9am on weekdays and all day on weekends and public holidays.
“A SuperGold Cardholder told us she would never use the $10 she was forced to load on the card and quite rightly asked, what is Auckland Transport doing with all the money,” says Mr Peters.
There are in fact many good reasons for SuperGold cardholders to get a HOP card.
- While most card holders will likely be travelling off peak, many still travel at peak and a HOP card allows them to pay for their fare (and get the HOP discounts).
- Perhaps more importantly is a SuperGold concession can be loaded onto a HOP card that means it automatically gives free travel after 9am.
If you wish to travel using an AT HOP card, you can have a SuperGold Concession loaded onto your card. This will save you having to get a free SuperGold ticket before you travel on trains and ferries. You may only hold one AT HOP card with a SuperGold profile on it. Travel commencing after 9am weekdays and all day on weekends and on public holidays will still be free and you will be able to tag on and tag off with your AT HOP card.
Travel commencing before 9am will be charged at adult fares to your HOP Money balance on your AT HOP card with at least 10% discount off single trip paper tickets (excludes NiteRider and Airbus Express bus services). https://at.govt.nz/bus-train-ferry/at-hop/at-hop-concessions/supergold-concession/
- Using a HOP card to tag on/off at a train station is also easier than having to go to a ticket machine – something some older citizens seem to struggle with.
- On buses the HOP card speeds up boarding making for quicker trips, not just for those with SuperGold cards but for everyone else and as we’ve discussed before that can have potentially big benefits for operational costs.
The reason I highlight this, is not so much for this specific example but that I wonder if this type of lack of understanding is perhaps a symptom of just how poor our PT has been for such a long time. Many people simply don’t understand why developments like HOP are so vitally needed. It’s also something that we need to be especially mindful of with an election coming up. In this specific case Peters would be better advocating for a HOP card that looks like a SuperGold card so that those eligible only need a single card in their wallet.
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Really, Hop is simply an attack on the elderly? They’ve gone to some pretty extreme lengths to attack the elderly. Boy the revenue of ten dollars from some gold card users who might never travel before 9am sure is a lucrative funding stream, screw oil prospecting in the southern basin, we’ve hit the jackpot!
Haha
It would be nice if AT provided free HOP card with -0.01 balance with SuperGold Concession loaded for SuperGold cars holders. Many may not travel at morning peak time, but the bus loads a lot faster if they can tag on, instead of waving the SuperGold card at the driver. And they feel “included” then too 🙂
The -0.01 balance idea is so they have no credit, but can still tag on after 9AM and on free services
Regardless of the concession or pass loaded on the card, a negative balance of even -$0.01 will render the card unusable. If that was the car you’d need to top up before you could use it.
Is it a valid concern that commuters under 65 might be obtaining SG Hop cards and using them? I assume SG Hop cards look exactly the same as standard ones. The only way fraudulent use could be detected is through audits in the pm peak.
Cameron – it’s not a special SG HOP card. You have your regular HOP card, with money on it, and you have to go into a full-service AT centre. The sight the SG card and then do some magic on a computer that puts the SG Card’s number into the HOP card. So if you use the HOP card before 9AM, you get charged; after you don’t.
True that if I lost my HOP card or someone stole it, they could ride after 9AM for free but I would immediately go to the athop site and cancel the card.
jj
I was thinking more about the scenario of Nana lending little Johnny her card so he didn’t have to pay for evening school / work trips. Is the SG card number really imprinted on to the Hop card? What would stop you buying another Hop card and getting the service centre to do their magic on it? And another, and another?
No, it’s not. You are quite right, there. If I lend my card to someone, that person can ride for free after 9. I suppose if the guy on the train ever came around to check the card to see if it was tagged on, he might see that it was tagged on as SG – but maybe not. I don’t know what they see (and I have never seen one check anyone’s ticket or card anyway – does it happen?).
The SG Card is validated electronically onto my HOP card – I suppose in the same way it does for the money I put on it. And regarding your second point, don’t know. Does the system know that my SG card is validated onto one HOP card and thus won’t let it be validated onto a second? Let’s try it sometime – meet me at an AT validation location and I’ll lend you my SG card :-).
That said, however, I should think it unlikely. When I had mine validated, the lady required other ID to show that the name on the SG card was the same as on my other ID – but, sure, you could fool the system. Perhaps if you grow a beard, and I lend you my other ID at the time you validate my SG card to your HOP card, it would work 🙂
So the system isn’t foolproof, but no ID system other than DNA or something is going to be that, I suppose.
jj
In Japan (well in Osaka and Fukuoka), if you are using a child’s or senior’s ticket the tag on/off post makes a bird’s whistle rather than a beep. This allows the ticket wardens to quickly sight people using kids or seniors tickets. There is also the self policing factor.
James, the child concession bird tweet happens at pretty well every ticket gate throughout Japan these days. Gate staff use the tweet sound not only to check that it is definitely children using the card but to also note how many kids daily go through any one set of station gates. The rail operator uses those staff observations to validate certain aspects of the daily gate data collected.
In Auckland, the reader should beep twice for a concession rather than once, but yes a different sound would be better. In London, a light flashes when the Concession ticket is used.
Ah! A mystery solved! I always wondered why mine beeps twice when I use it in the evenings, but everyone else’s only beeps once! Hmm.. And I have heard others’ cards beep twice, though from their age they certainly aren’t on a SuperGold card.
Live and learn 🙂
jj
Yes, Louis. A bird tweet at the gates in AKL to indicate child concession passage or for senior citizen concession passage would be good. As the tweet sound was retrofitted to gates in Japan, it could certainly be done that way for the gates in Auckland.
In Auckland tertiary students also get two beeps, which makes the whole thing useless as anyone at any age can therefore have a concession. It also allows tertiary students to get away without any suspicion if they pretend to be under 16 on the website and only pay child fares.
Thre AKL gates need four ID sound types then – the standard one for adult fares, one for child concessions, one for student concessions and one for SuperGold card holders. Retrofitting gates with a set of bitd chirps and ambient ‘ding’ sounds is not hard at all.
Good idea. Can I suggest a scream for children, a voice saying ‘get a job’ for students, a cow mooing for the seniors and a fart noise for the people who actually had to pay full price.
Not to mention a sad trombone for penalty fares.
I am a SuperGold card holder – and am full-time employed. It was quite important that I got my SG card validated onto the HOP card. Had I not done so, and wanted to ride the train, arriving at Britomart late, I would have had to spend time buying a ticket and might have missed the train. I use the card in the morning, and pay; in the evening I am free, whether on the train or the ‘bus.
I do wish there had been more convenient places I could have gone to get the SG card validated onto the HOP card, though. There aren’t many around. It should be a lot more available.
jj
I am sure Winston understands AT Hop perfectly well. But politicians never let an opportunity for some grandstanding go to waste.
It is in AT’s and the travelling public’s interest that the majority of PT travellers using the card, particularly for buses where the cash handling and ticket generation process is a serious time waster, and timetable buster. But also for the business intelligence they can get from the card data.
There are two issues here: the cost of the card, and the requirement to load a balance onto it. Loading the balance should not be mandatory: if you don’t need a balance to travel (e.g. SG holders) then you shouldn’t be forced to load money onto it. Recovering the cost of the card stock is another matter. Is it better to just give them away for a period of time, to get them in as many hands as possible? No doubt that would cause complaints from those who had already purchased them.
Is it possible to allow card top ups on the bus e.g. if I give the driver $20, can I than tag on and simultaneously load the $20 and start the fare meter running?
The bit I don’t understand is the pre-loading comment. I bought a HOP card about a year ago for $5. There was no requirement to pre-load it. Ditto for someone I know but also holding a SG card who loaded that onto the HOP card and uses the latter to tag on/off after 9am. I’ve never had occasion to use my HOP card, but maybe one day I will! So is the $10 minimum credit a recent requirement?
It is no problem at all to load the SG card onto a HOP card. As I already held a Hop card when I turned 65, I got the AT Hop card for free and I was quite happy to load $10 on to it.
It was only a small amount of money for me but $10 can be a lot of money to some superannuitants; is there some way to overcome this?
And I’m not going to apologise for being pedantic: there is no apostrophe in “shows”.
What exactly is the problem?
The SG card holder has to pay out $10 for a card that gives them FREE travel after 9am. That is a very good deal.
If this deal was offered to everyone the demand would be immense with no argument about the $10 charge. Instead we have a system where a SG cardholder decides to buy a product and goes from their home via public transport to buy at the cheapest price. Not really a problem you say. Except the SG holder lives on Waiheke Island and goes by bus/ferry buys the product for $9.99 at the Warehouse then returns home by the same path. Total cost to the taxpayer $35-$40, saving to SG holder $3.00 compared to the on island price. And there is complaint about having to pay for a card that gives free travel until the holder dies. There are far more serious inequalities in society.
Min top up should be $1. Hop card should remain $5 after the promo. Th here’s no point having a minimum of $10. You can still run it down to like $0 and then take a trip from waitakere to pukekohe leaving the card at -$15.21 or waiheke ferry -$18.00.
It’s election year. There are babies to be kissed, imaginary dragons to be slain and fears to be stoked.
At the moment politicians are vote catching with nothing much to use as bait so they are all scrambling a bit.
It is not compulsory to buy the Hop Card. You can still pay the driver. But the Hop card makes life so much easier. And I regularly have to travel before 9am so have to pay which I don’t mind as i am so grateful for the free fares. It has made a huge difference to my life
One point is that the SG card allows travel – no other ticket or Hop card is required.
That is what Parliament mandated and AT have no right to change it.
Incorrect. The supergold card allows off peak travel for free, it doesn’t replace the need for a ticket or other proof of travel. In fact all operators conditions of carriage require passengers to have a ticket or equivalent, not least so they have records for reimbursement from the government.
The supergold website clearly states that the exact ticket requirement varies in different regions, it also says you must have a go card in Dunedin, so Aucklanders get of easy being able to get a paper ticket each time if they so chose.
http://www.supergold.govt.nz/info-for-cardholders/public-transport-with-supergold.html
Oh and AT subsidise free gold card travel between 3pm and 6.30pm, which is not covered by the government and which no other region gets. So seeing as they are paying full price for all senior travel in the afternoon peak then yes maybe they do have the right to set a few conditions themselves.
The point is valid though, AT should not be advising over 65’s to buy a HOP card unless they are specifically referring to peak travel. Over 65’s are guaranteed free PT for off-peak travel, and that means no charge for anything related to that travel. If AT want a HOP card in everyone’s hands eventually, they will need to issue them for free to seniors.
Where and how are AT actually advising SG holders they require an ATHOP as far as I can tell they only advise it as an option.
Why not, a one off investment of $15 to save themselves time and never get caught out even if they have to travel at peak sounds like a good think to advertise.
Not every over 65 is an impoverished pensioner happy to waste their time to save $1.
I could not agree more. But Winston and some other commentators are making it sound like AT is telling SG holders they have to get an ATHOP. No such compulsion is involved. It is only an option, a good, cheap and sensible option, but an option none the less. SG holders can continue to show their SG to drivers/ print out a paper ticket at train stations without an ATHOP card.
What more, if they spend any time travelling at peak times, they will get the savings back in no time at all via the HOP discount.
Because they are guaranteed free travel off peak by law, so there should be no suggestions that they buy anything, unless it’s clearly stated it’s for peak-travel.
In Westetn Australia, the seniors card works for public transport. They fine seniors just like everyone else if they don’t tag on off.
That would be great. But for it to work here, we’d need a single nationwide PT card system. At the moment, almost every city has a different card – and Wellington even has several types within the same network.
Why do we have to wait until there is a unified system? Why can’t seniors that are resident in Auckland be issued Hop compatible cards, and so on? When individuals wish to travel on public transport in other towns and cities, they can issue a ticket, but when they are using the network they frequent most, they can use the Hop card.
Or why not just run the scheme in Auckland, until Wellington sorts out their card problems? Does AT really have to wait for other cities to get on board? Can they not approach WINZ, and supply them with compatible card blanks for Auckland residents?
The HOP card is compatible. The concession can be loaded on to it with proof of SGC status. Dead easy.
I do see where Winston Peters is coming from the HOP card is a very complicated concept. It was a massive headache for me and many other students to get the concession sorted and imagine what it’s like for elderly people. The process definitely needs to be simplified.
Complicated? My 70 year old mum, who doesn’t have a car, simply call the ATHop call line to find out what she needed and then on her next trip to town, purchased a Hop card and had her SGC concession loaded on it. This is someone who doesn’t use a computer.
What makes it hard for students? Register a hop, then take it to a service centre with a valid student iD and you are set for the year, no matter what PT you take or when.
I used to have to line up at the quad ticket office every week to buy a ten trip pass. Could only get it there, could only get it for one operator, and could only get enough for a couple of weeks at best.
It’s certainly a huge improvement but it’s not optimal, still requires people to go to Britomart and at the start of semester to spend hours queuing up. However, the concession is then activated and loaded on immediately. Compare that to Snapper which required people to fill out a form, post it off and wait a couple of months for it to be activated, meanwhile paying normal fares the whole time. NZBus basically intentionally made the system slow and annoying simply to make more money IMO. I’m very glad they’re out of the picture now.
Incorrect re Britomart. I think Henderson needs a service centre as well but there are quite a few more service centres now. https://at.govt.nz/bus-train-ferry/at-hop/at-hop-help/
You can also use any of the busway service centres or the kne they set up in altea square specifically for the start of the uni year
Yes it is so easy. At the time we transferred our Riches passes to hop the website was down, so we rang the help line and they did everything for us. 5 days later our hop cards arrived. The help desk people were very helpful, I recommend them.
I watched a mum get all bitter at an AT service centre operator because she couldn’t get it into her head that a student ID only lasts for 12 months and the concession needs to be renewed yearly. It’s not a difficult concept. You’re not a student for life.
My husband and I (seniors) have used a HOP card as soon as it was available. There is no need to add money to it unless you intend to travel outside the normal free hours or go on transport that you have to pay for. If you get the card registered at Britomart during the day when they’re not busy, registering takes no time at all.
We travel every Wednesday in a group of 9-12 and all of us happily use our cards. It makes boarding buses a breeze and I’m sure the drivers appreciate it.
As a group, we have had our cards inspected on many train trips – we are almost on first name terms with the inspectors by now!
However, a HOP card has a way to go to be as versatile and useful as a Hong Kong Octopus card.
If the bus driver hears 2 bleeps, it could be student, community services, disabled OR a SuperGold Card loaded onto HOP card.
There is no incentive for bus driver to police this, and no reason why Auckland Transport should worry – they are getting paid for the ticket regardless.
Remember ‘free’ SGC transport really means ‘taxpayer paid’ public transport.
If there is widespread abuse (granny giving HOP card to family under 65) the govt are sure to notice increased SGC transport costs and make cutbacks later on. And we all lose.
I do remember one time, when I was on the ‘bus, a young woman (thirty-ish) showed her grandmother’s SG card to the driver – not HOP, wanted a ticket. She said it was her grandmother’s card and was astonished when the driver wouldn’t let her use it.
jj
I’ve always thought that Winstone’s finest work was regarding the winebox issue. When I looked at these latest comments I thought that his inspiration may have come from a similar place.
As a SGC holder and fairly frequent user of the trains, didn’t know that this option was available, so I feel that maybe I have missed out on publicity or something. It would be nice to understand the options for those of us who don’t travel prior to 9am or only infrequently like the odd occasion like going to Middlemore appointments. Is there somewhere to get this information?