You really do have to read the Auckland Transport board papers quite carefully to pick up on the important things – including a lot of “reading between the lines”. Here’s a classic example, from the business report to Monday’s meeting, in relation to the rollout of integrated ticketing:
Go-Live date prior to 30th November was confirmed for Rail and Ferry services, the Bus services will follow
This is almost the worst sentence I have ever read in the history of anything, because it is completely unclear. But what it seems we can assume is that the HOP card will be in place by November 30th for Rail and Ferry services – but who knows when for buses. It could be shortly afterwards, it could be next year, it could be in 20 years time for all the progress we’ve made so far on integrated ticketing in Auckland!
Reading this statement reminded me that quite recently Auckland Transport CEO David Warburton reassured us all that HOP would most definitely be up and running on NZ Bus services by that magic date of November 30th. Here’s the article actually:
Although the deadline has been progressively pushed out to November 30, Auckland Transport chief executive David Warburton says he has no reason to doubt that Snapper will be ready to plug into the integrated system by that date.
As the article above suggests, the November 30th deadline (which now won’t even be met by the sounds of it) is a delay from the original timetable.
Back in January, the NZ Herald was reporting that the current Snapper/HOP cards would need to be replaced by the “proper” HOP cards, for implementation around the middle of the year:
From the middle of this year, the Hop cards will have to be replaced at an undisclosed cost to Auckland Transport by upgraded versions suitable for all forms of public transport using the Thales system.
These include trains, ferries and bus services such as Northern Express operator Ritchies Transport, Howick and Eastern, Birkenhead Transport, Urban Express and Bayes Coachlines.
Yet even that “middle of 2012” date was a delay from previous estimates. In April last year, Brian Rudman reported the following around timeframes for the “proper HOP card” as being “later this year” (2011):
Once the Thales system is up and running this year, the game will be played by Auckland Transport’s rules. That’s when a zonal system comes into being covering all modes of public transport, and users will be able to switch from train to bus to ferry and have the combo fare calculated and deducted instantly from their Hop card. At that stage the all-important float – the prepaid fares for the coming month – will be in the hands of Auckland Transport, not Snapper, the interest from this substantial pot of money helping to fund the whole operation.
If the November 30th deadline can’t be met for implementation of absolutely everything, then I think it’s time heads started to roll over this. It’s turning into a farce.
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Rather than the AT Board report being deliberately vague, you have to assume that there are delicate discussions with NZ Bus ongoing to try to resolve whatever the current impasse over HOP might be, and that there is a desire not to inflame the situation further. Given the high degree of politicisation that NZ Bus injected into the Snapper/Thales “contest”, it’s more appropriate for the politicians to thump the table and demand answers, rather than the AT officers in the context of their report.
As for heads being made to roll, whose heads did you have in mind? To my mind, Gerry Brownlee was on the money – the ultimate sanction is that NZ Bus may disqualify itself from future AT contracts if it can’t/won’t meet the ticketing requirements. It would be unfair for AT heads to roll to meet the public need for vengeance over an NZ Bus failure. Presuming, of course, that the fault really does lie with NZ Bus.
Which raises another question: Can anyone actually identify precisely what is the difficulty in NZ Bus achieving compatibility of the systems?
They should rename it HOPE instead.
Haha, I quite agree with that one, Nick! 😉
Thats hope Snapper can get their act together before NZBus starts losing contracts of course 😉
Haha, either way they’re on a wing and a prayer, eh Nick? 😉
Uh-oh, now you’ve done it – everyone’s favourite Snapperturfer incoming in 5,4,3…
Sorry, Sam. It’s taken me a whole day to see the post and get into it. Hope I haven’t missed anything. ;-D
Cheers,
Mike
I wonder if this means Brownlee will kick NZ Bus off the run, like he promised last month.
From what I understand, there new ticketing machines have still not be ordered by the bus companies, and therefore manufacturing has not yet commenced, due to some delay with AT/Thales and I assume integration with Snapper. November definitely will not be met based on this alone.
David/Peter – there is no way NZ Bus will be kicked off all its routes. Why? quite simple, they do 65% of scheduled runs and the other bus companies combined could not take up the slack. The punishment would need to be in the form of reduced subsidies, not removing them from service which would impact on the quality of bus services. THe reduced subsidy could even help fund the extra costs this delay must be causing.
They could, if NZBus lose a bunch of routes then they have to lay off staff and sell off fleet, maybe a depot or two also. That means the other bus companies or a new operator could step in to hire those people and buy those vehicles. It would be very messy and lead to a lot of disruption, but it would be capitalism in practice and show the market that Auckland government will no longer roll over and take it.
Not removed from current routes, but disqualified from bidding in future. Other companies could pick up the slack if given enough notice, because the route operation negotiations take place over months and have long lead-times from conclusion of negotiations to the contract(s) taking effect. NZBus might find that, in a couple of years’ time, they’re suddenly off the road in Auckland as a consequence of their intransigence over this issue, and if we don’t have a National Party Minister of Transport who’s perfectly willing to stick his nose into things that would be a realistic course of action for AT.
My point was that the threat was just big talk but actually hollow or not well thought out. There are ways to punish. the simplist with the quickest impactg would be to say you are not complying with AT terms and therefore your subsidy will be withheld will you comply.
Tender rounds are too infrequent for this type of punishment (ie. they may be compliant by then) and suggesting a break up is a lot more difficult than it sounds.
the fault is clearly with Snapper and the lack of integration of their bus equipment
fault also with the decision AT made to promote a hop branded card which included snapper in the first place
a misguided, short term ‘political’ need to show delvery
My analysis of this is that AT was cornered and effectively forced to include HOP branding on the Snapper card because to fail to do so would have led to Snapper becoming de facto the standard for Auckland. NZ Bus was always going to launch Snapper, with or without HOP, because they still believed that they could reverse the decision to make Thales the national standard – remember how they fought and fought even when it was clear that they had lost the contest? If HOP hadn’t been “integrated” into Snapper at the outset, then NZ Bus would first have got the Snapper operation up and running, and then launched a public campaign against the $millions being poured into Thales/HOP with the expectation that the public would force the politicians to back down in the interests of saving money. Result: NZ Bus would de facto “win” the competition that it had already lost. Someone tell me I’m wrong and that conspiracy theory has no place in this argument . . .?
Bugger me, wonder if the directors of AT thought to even question it at the Board meeting. There isn’t enough pro-active oversight from the Board IMHO – why is it left to left leaning transport blogs to raise these issues?
I was going to refrain from this particular post but your comment got my attention.
It is just not the left leaning blogs raising the issue here with HOP. However limitations apply as well to the extent on raising issues too
This is not a left or right (political) thing. I lean so far right my spine is curved.
This is about public transport users.
Big Jerry B (on the right) is throwing out some big words.
Len Brown, the saviour of public transport, seems to be completely quiet. STFU about the central rail loop if you cant even get integrated ticketing for buses sorted. Bus travell effects far more people than rail does (I think) so lets focus on this as a huge improvement can be made quickly and cheaply.
You could have a rant and big Jerry and his party mates, they are the ones that made this bed we have to lie in. We had a law passed by the last government that, among other things, gave Auckland local government the power to prevent operators from using a ticketing system other than the integrated ticketing standard. The current government rescinded that law, which allowed Infratil to charge off and try and ram their system in regardless of what the city or Wellington wanted to use.
“left leaning tranport blog” was said tongue in cheek. This is how Steven Joyce referred to this blog in Parliament a while back.
Are Dr Warburton’s comments implying that Hop/Snapper cards are expected to work with the train and ferry validators by this time? In which case his statement may still hold, but did he know at the time the buses wouldn’t be ready, or is this news to him also?
If AT are rolling out rail and ferry anyhow, it does make you wonder how they have got round the branding issue. If Snapper haven’t got their cards working with the train and ferry validators by 30 November, I foresee further delays unless there is a rebranding Plan B.
My suggestion is that all current Hop / Snapper cards have a Snapper sticker plastered over the top, and the “Hop Cards Welcome” signage on NZ Bus buses be replaced with “Snapper Cards Welcome”.
Hi everyone,
Hope you’ve all been well. Are the delays Snapper’s fault or not, that seems to be the question of the day. Hands up who’s wondering what happened to Parkeon, the technology company bought in to arrange integrated technology for bus companies other than NZ Bus? Anyone?
That Parkeon hasn’t been able to introduce the technology for integrated ticketing suggests that the delays are Auckland Transport’s fault, doesn’t it?
Cheers,
Mike
Ah Mike, straight in trying to blame anyone but an Infratil company.
Let’s see, train and ferry have a finite date for roll out, bus has a wish washy might happen someday deadline.
So who runs three quarters of Auckland buses and what card system are they desperately trying to get working with the national standard?
Haha, maybe Nick, maybe.
Either that or I’m smart enough to realise that someone’s getting the blamed heaped on them when they don’t deserve it.
If Snapper do deserve the blame, perhaps you’re up for explaining why Parkeon haven’t managed to provide the technology to those other bus companies, yet. What do you reckon?
Cheers,
Mike
Is Parkeon supplier to the trains and ferries?
I don’t believe so, KLK, but I’d also be interested in finding out the answer to this one. Perhaps another reader on here is able to help us out…
Cheers,
Mike
Thales are supplying the train and ferry equipment.
Parkenon aren’t/weren’t required to have their readers up and working by now and I believe the plan had been to ‘upgrade’ the Snapper readers to the Thales system and roll out HOP to the trains and ferry’s. The other bus companies would come later. Also there is another bit of difference, Parkenon are developing the technology to the NZTA spec as required, Snapper deployed their readers and promised they would work with the NZTA spec but haven’t been able to get it to do so.
Agreed Mike, snapper is not the only one that are lagging, however they are the ones holding back trains and ferry’s going online. The other bus companies were supposed to be the last ones onto the system, and they are not that far behind from where they are supposed to be. Snapper have F’d up here with there systems not meeting the required standards, the most frustrating part of it is the lack of communication from snapper, they haven’t told the public what’s gone wrong and when and how it will be fixed.
So although Parkenon is late, they are not actually holding much up…NZ Bus and Snapper however…:/
Interesting media release by NZ Bus this evening: http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/BU1206/S00719/integrated-ticketing-auckland.htm
“NZ Bus are committed to and continue to work with Auckland Transport to deliver integrated ticketing in Auckland” said Zane Fulljames Chief Executive Officer NZ Bus.
Yup. That’s it.
My guess is the statement is in relation to this piece from Radio NZ which again confirmed Gerry’s comments from a few months ago that NZ Bus would be off the run if they didn’t get it working.
http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/regional/108829/bus-ticketing-hitch-in-auckland
Also funny that all these comments come out today after this post goes up.
Thanks for linking to this, Peter. I would have missed it but for seeing it on here this evening. NZ Bus has a fairly minimalist approach to press releases, doesn’t it? I wonder what its reasons are for that approach.
Hope you’re well.
Cheers,
Mike
Ooh, forgetting the trolling crap that is Mr Wilkinson, it appears that; Mr Fulljames is subscribing to the Clint Eastwood laconic understatement mode of statement. The proof of this particular pudding will be seen at the long-delayed 30 November launch of the first phase of Auckland’s integrated ticketing programme.
Oh great! Another day, another delay. This is seriously getting beyond a joke and Auckland Transport needs to start showing some real muscle.
I wonder if we are misinterpreting the sentence? My reading of it is:
1. HOP will be rolled out on rail and ferry before the 30 November; and
2. The bus roll out will follow after the rail and ferry is complete.
So clearly #1 happens before 30 November AND #2 happens after #1. What is not clear is whether #2 happens before the 30 November or not. All in all a very vague sentence, which is reason enough to be suspicious.
Good to see Mike Wilkinson providing his totally legit, unpaid unpartisan opinion on this. Funny how he only show up threads where Snapper is mentioned though….
With respect, Cam, Auckland’s facing a whole range of issues with its public transport. The only one I know stuff about is integrated ticketing and I believe I offer an alternative interpretation of events to common opinions on here: it’s only natural for me to comment on posts relating to Snapper.
Whatever happens with Snapper and HOP, I think we can be confident that this one won’t be going away soon. I hope that those who want to see better public transport for Auckland start to see Snapper in a different light: it ain’t the enemy many might think it is.
Cheers,
Mike
. . . and nor is it the national PT standard. Rightly or wrongly, the perception arises that Infratil is still playing silly buggers in a misguided attempt to somehow secure a better position for Snapper, which must surely be costing them heaps at the moment, given that I don’t get any sense that it has actually caught on in its planned role as a payment card for small purchases. Are we seeing a last-ditch rearguard action to try to save Snapper in Auckland? If that’s not the case, NZ Bus would be better served by being more fulsome than the one-line press release they put out, which surely raises more questions than it addresses. If they were able to put a bit more effort into communication, then maybe they wouldn’t be seen as the enemy. The conclusion that you have to draw, given their unwillingness to explain properly, is that they ARE playing silly buggers.
I disagree that that’s the conclusion we have to draw, David. As I’ve asked previously, if being Snapper are playing silly buggers, how come Parkeon haven’t been able to develop terminals for their bus company clients, yet? The better explanation seems to be that AT are the ones playing silly buggers, but many Aucklanders dislike of Snapper are blinding them to that. I think the question is, which of you are up to taking your blindfolds off? The alternative must be that AT will continue to lead you down the garden path.
Cheers,
Mike
“how come Parkeon haven’t been able to develop terminals for their bus company clients”.
Do you have any proof that they haven’t?
The information I have is that the other Bus companies want the new machines sooner rather than late (as their current machines are at end of life) but the new machines are not ready to be built yet, for one reason or another.
Because their deadline has always been a later deadline…NZ Bus meet their deadline but didn’t meet the standards at least Parkeon will meet the standards.
Apopogies to Akarana, but:
Sorry, Nick, but what’s that pic trying to show?
See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trollface
You are being trolled by Snapper, silly.
Hey Nick,
Is your request for “proof” an admission that we need more information on what’s going on at AT? Late last year, Parkeon thought it would have be delivering equipment from the middle of the year: http://auckland.scoop.co.nz/2011/12/five-bus-companies-sign-up-for-hop-smart-card-itll-also-work-on-trains-and-ferries/
You are more than welcome to provide evidence that Parkeon are busy getting ready for a big install. Right now, it looks to me like they’re going to miss their middle of the year deadline.
Cheers,
Mike
Mike – I don’t mind if they are late but meet the standards.
The problem is Snapper doesn’t meet the standards even though they promised they would, so kind of different scenario don’t you think?
Open your eyes, Joshua. The fact that Parkeon are late is evidence that AT are the ones mucking around with their standards and that it doesn’t have anything to do with Snapper.
Man, is it hard to get some of you guys to a closer look at the evidence before you blame Snapper!
Cheers,
Mike
Mike – I agree the situation is unknown.
Clearly some blame lies with AT as they have not finalised everything to allow Parkeon to start manufacture.
The question however is “is the delay caused by AT trying to accommodate Snapper for one reason or another”.
People here seem to think this is the case (based on Big Jerry’s comments) which begs teh further question, “why is AT pandering to Snapper” when as Jerry Suggests, AT should steam roll on without them.
Thanks, Harvey. I agree that this isn’t a situation any of us in the general public can claim to understand. However, that doesn’t prevent many on here rushing in to blame Snapper without much in the way of evidence. When I come along, questioning why they’re doing that, I get asked for “proof”.
If you reckon that AT should steam roll on without Snapper, have you given any thought to why they aren’t?
Cheers,
Mike
You question why not steam roll on without NZBus/Snapper. Possible reasons:
1. AT is not ready
2. AT made a deal with the devil re the hop/snapper launch and are now stuck in that deal
3. Snapper helped out AT re the first launch
4. Integrated ticketing without the company supplying 65% of services is kind of pointless. To the extent you use more than one Bus co, it is likely one of them will be NZ Bus.
5. Parkeon is not ready
You seem to be suggesting the first or fifth. I have seen and heard nothing that indicates this.
But I do agree with you that we are all flying blind with very little info. That is why my money is on 2.
“The fact that Parkeon is late”? That’s rich.
You’ve provided a link to a six month old article that describes a roll out *starting* from a deadline *that hasn’t even been reach yet*, and it’s a fact that Parkeon are already late.
You’re really clutching at straws now Mike!
Haha, whatever Nick. I’m only clutching at straws if you can stump up with credible evidencec suggesting Parkeon are on track with their roll-out. I look forward to hearing whether or not you have and, if so, what that evidence is.
Cheers,
Mike
Mike you’re the one making the claim that it is a fact that Parkeon won’t deliver, so the burden of proof falls on you to support that claim. I’m not making a claim one way or another because I don’t have evidence one way or another.
My request for proof was an admission that you make some pretty wild claims without a scrap of evidence to back them up, nothing more.
I don’t know if Parkeon are ready and waiting or not. All I know is two things: AT won’t roll out until they can do all buses at the same time, and that Snapper aren’t ready and their system runs on about three quarters of buses in Auckland.
Occams Razor suggest that Snapper’s inability to get their system to work with the national standard is the most likely cause for the further delay in bus roll out, not that Snapper has suddenly become ready (despite all reports of delays at their end) and Parkeon has suddenly become unready (despite no reports of delays at their end).
Ok, Nick, I’ll take your bait. Please name any one of my comments that have been “wild”. I’ll go easy on you: I have no issue if you identify one from another post. The challenge, however, is to find a single one of all of my comments that might be defined as wild.
I also wonder why you think AT won’t roll out until they can do all buses at the same time. Ever heard of a phased roll out before? They’re just a weeny bit easier to accomplish than any sort of grandiose scheme.
Cheers,
Mike
Mike AT won’t roll it out in a phased manner because of confusion. Due to NZ BUS’s strange branding policy, they are actually viewed by the public has four separate brands. Therefore it would be very confusing to say that your HOP will work on a Birkenhead Transport, Ritchies or H&E bus but not a North Star, Metrolink, GO WEST or Wakapacific bus. If AT had chosen to name the HOP Snapper simply “Snapper” then it would have worked better because it would have been easier to distinguish between the two cards but because they are both “HOP” it will simply be too confusing for the public.
It wouldnt be that confusing – you would just have to tell people that if your hop card previously worked on a bus, it wont any more and if it didn’t work on a bus, then it will – makes perfect sense.
So basically, everyone with a hop card can no longer use it but those who can use it dont currently have one (excluding those who use multiple bus companies).
“The fact that Parkeon are late is evidence that AT are the ones mucking around with their standards and that it doesn’t have anything to do with Snapper”
There you go Mike, one wild totally unsubstantiated claim. Didn’t have to look very far!
Come on Louis, use your imagination: when I say a phased roll-out, I mean the technology gets introduced on some bus companies and then others. It would be idiotic to think that the system can be rolled out instantly, everywhere. For starters that would mean some buses would be driving around for months on end with terminals that weren’t operational. If the terminals are there and people have HOP cards in their hands already, why wouldn’t AT let them use it?
I continue to find it remarkable how people’s dislike of Snapper causes them to become blind to how new systems would work.
Cheers,
Mike
Have been following the blogs on integrated ticketing for a while now and comparing the information contributors bring to the discussion against some of the things I have come to find out through some friends in the know. I will state up front that I have no love for Snapper (as opposed to Mike the Troll) given their attempts to force their way in to Auckland having lost the tender. However, I have it on pretty good authority that NTZA as standard setter (NITIS) and Auckland Transport as systems integrator (AIFS) have been in a word, inept. Their ineptitude (and the fact that they generally have no idea what they are doing) has been the root cause behind delays to Snapper and Parkeon – how can third party developers integrate to Thales when the rules/standards keep changing? As an Auckland ratepayer (and a taxpayer through NZTA) I am FUMING at the cost of the delays to this project. It is a massive waste of money that could have been avoided if they had some half decent people in charge who new what they were doing. Heads should roll at AT and NZTA. As always, easy to blame others (read Snapper, Parkeon, Thales – as opposed to yourself). Funny how there has been zero acceptance of some accountability for the delay from NZTA and AT. Do you really believe that a bunch of bureaucrats are utterly blameless in this fiasco? Watch this space for more delays,…….
Great comment, Rob. Although I reject being called a troll and assure you that I have no love for Snapper, either, I quite agree with you that it’s very unlikely that the beauracrats are blameless in all of this. The question in my mind is, will Aucklanders start asking more questions of AT and stop just accepting its comments that someone else is at fault?
Cheers,
Mike
Agree. While Snapper may have some blame (to be determined) it does fall on AT as the project driver. They make the rules and should make everyone stay in line.
Where is Len Browns leadership to get this sorted. Maybe even Jerry B should step in rather than making his stupid threats.
Clearly there have been delays on AT / Thales part.I have no idea about Parkeon. At least these parties have the best interests of transport in mind. Snapper is simply trying to squeeze as much money as they can out of ratepayers and bus users. Obviously a phased approach will probably take place, BUT I guess the plan will be NZ Bus to be the initial people to switch over (aside from trains & ferries possibly) and then for BT, R, UE, HE to follow. But if these other bus companies are ready before NZ Bus then they will just have to wait and it can go live at the same time.
This raises another issue. It doesn’t sound like it is feasible for another operator to take over from NZ Bus. This puts Auckland a long way behind WA/SA/NSW/VIC. In these places buses and bus depots are either owned by the state or must be made available to a new operator. This prevents any particular operator from running wild, even if these protections do not apply in QLD.
From very close sources inside the project..All of the reasons apply..
1. AT is not ready. Bus requires lot of changes. New PTOM model means a lot of rules change. Organisation is simply not ready. No leadership. No direction. Lot of Managers managing bits and pieces.
2. AT is sill negotiating with Snapper. Snapper has no incentive to deliver – it takes away their financial stream. Cannot push them out of the bus that easily. AT is very slack in providing bus requirements. Without hard and fast requirements how can Snapper invest millions. Who will pay for changes from unclear requirements?
3. Parkeon is not ready. Parkeon is really on halt as the consortium is not working very well. Their estimates at first place were wrong. Waiting for clarification an confirmation from AT.
4. Thales is not supportive enough to provide the solution.Even Thales solution is not stable and cannot handle Auckland situations well and needs architectural change.
5. Project is operated by people who doesnt have a clue on what they are doing.
Dont get surprised if you dont have Rail/Ferry working fine before November. Bus -expect in late 2013. Another year away. EASY!
Oh. Crap.
Having worked with THALES overseas, they are a professional company that never enters into a project that they cant deliver. They complete numerous projects worlwide (not just transport) and met thier deadlines. They apply experts in thier field to every project. Do a google search, as they have delivered over 50 ticketing solutions worldwide from thier transport division.
It might be the case in newspaper or google. But once you work closely with Thales you will understand they are a bunch of old school thinkers who doesnt think from a customer point. A a bunch of techies who think world is in 1980 with such old pieces of kit selling for millions. Too big organisation and takes too much time to fix something. Even when there is a major major issue, Thales is a slow coach and expect a reply in 2 months! Is that how world is in 2012? Thales doesnt work for Auckland specific situations, mainly trains. In Auckland, we dont have electronic gates in all stations. Thales architecutre currently cannot handle few fundamental scenarios.
Parkeon is good, but they didnt realise its a big piece. Do you honestly believe bus companies (especially the smaller players!) are willing to open their wallets to give away millions of dollars to Parkeon? Auckland is too small for three players. One will die – Parkeon or Snapper. Behind the scenes, Thales might come back to buses – who knows huh!
Snapper is capable, but would I grow something knowing that it will kill me? Snapper’s revenue stream will disappear once HOP is in place. Auck Transport need to work with them – not force things.
Reasons for failure? Lack of leadership, project management, political interventions, communication, change management, technical integration, too many cheifs, unprofessional people. Its not a project, a bunch of people believing in “Mythical Man Month” working on “something”.