Well the HOP card has now been operational on Metrolink and Link buses for the past three days – including Queen’s Birthday when it first went live. I have a few observations and I’m curious about what observations and experiences others have had over the last few days if you’re a Metrolink customer, or the past few weeks if you use buses from other NZ Bus brands.
A few things I’ve noticed/thought:
- People boarding the buses via HOP card can do so really quickly, but they get held up badly by those paying cash. I guess over time more people will start using HOP though I wonder whether we need to make the price differential between HOP and cash greater than 10%.
- I wonder if a sign could be put on the buses saying “if you’re paying cash please don’t block the doorway”? That way the fast HOP payers could sneak past.
- I’ve seen four or five people trying to tag on by putting their wallets in front of the reader, but I’m yet to see it actually work. Normally it says it hasn’t read the card properly.
- The lines at Britomart for people trying to swap over their balance from GO Rider cards are immensely long (or at least were on Monday evening). This might be putting some people off swapping to the new card straight away.
- Most people seem to remember to tag off. I tend to keep my HOP card out of my wallet while travelling to make sure I don’t forget (which I’m sure I will do eventually).
- There seems little logic in requiring people to tag off on the Link bus – it’s a flat fare after all.
As a final thought, I must say I am surprised how slow the cards are to register with the reader – you have to hold them in front of it for what seems like an eternity. Hopefully when the real HOP system is rolled out late this year the cards read much faster.
Processing...
I have been using my Wellington Snapper card on the North Star buses since Hop started. Always tagged on and off with the card in my wallet and it has always worked. Trick is to have the card immediately inside your wallet, not buried in the middle. Same with my Oyster card in London.
Does anyone know if they’re going to let people tag on at the back doors? Seems kind of silly not to. A lot of bus drivers in Auckland have a strange habit of not opening the rear doors, even if people have to get off.
“People boarding the buses via HOP card can do so really quickly, but they get held up badly by those paying cash.”
It’d be nice to do away with cash fares all together. They slow things down considerably, create the need to manage cash on buses and at depots, and allow the possibility for driver fraud (which happened recently… in Wellington perhaps?)
I don’t think it is unreasonable to require all residents of a city to have a bus card if they wish to use buses. Keeping the cards cheap is obviously beneficial politically. National standardisation is essential so that people don’t need multiple cards when they travel for business or on holiday.
That only leaves foreign tourists. I don’t think there is much problem getting them to buy a bus card… most Kiwis visiting London probably fork out for an Oyster Card. But if that isn’t acceptable then install single use ticket machines at a few places around town, like railway stations and the airport.
Sydney has a useful middle ground – with some services and some stops being prepay only. Typically, the busy CBD stops are prepay only 7am-7pm Monday to Friday, while the red “Metro buses” were prepay all the time I think.
I do think cash-free would be a useful long-term goal – but we would need a tonne more places where the cards are sold & topped up, and we would also need full implementation of the ability to automatically renew your card online or automatically top it up without having to go to a store – and to have those funds available immediately.
What about a tourist past. You simply sell it at hotels, motels, hostels etc. It can then be offered to them by staff and added on to the cost of the room or bought in cash. You’d also want to sell it with normal hop cards as well so people who aren’t staying in hotels can get one.
Doesn’t anyone like the automatic coin counter idea? It works really well here in Edinburgh – almost as fast paying by cash as it is to use a card.
I like it. They have that in the USA although it’s problematic because of them still stupidly having $1 notes.
From memory the difference between using an oyster card and cash is more than 100%- 90p versus 2 pounds. Naturally just about no one pays cash and bus entry is very quick.
When I lived in Stockholm the difference in cost for cash vs. card/stamp/whatever was close to 100% and the main justification for that came from the drivers because having less cash around makes them less “stealable” 🙂
Yeah I think increasing the difference between cash and card fares would help to deter people from using cash.
Agree – increase the differential between the cash/HOP fares. You could also mark the entrances to provide a visual cue as to where people should stand when paying by cash … plus in Edinburgh the buses have automatic coin counters that do not give change = much quicker loading for those who do pay by cash.
.s
Recalling my London experiences, I raised the idea of cashless drivers with AT (then ARTA) at a smart card focus group, oh, a year or so ago; blank response. It was as if they’d already decided the route they were going to go down and it didn’t include a cash free option for buses. I rather suspect this was a NZ Bus decision in the sense that they don’t really want to invest in the infrastructure, ie ticket machines at high usage bus stops and other mechanisms such as single ride paper-based tickets bought from accredited vendors would require them to loose a slice of the cake. Then again, it could just be a reflection of the usual supine attitude AT displays toward operators in its administration of what should be OUR bus network, ie a network run for the benefit of its users rather than shareholders expecting a 20% RTE.
Having used cards overseas it just seems so slow. First time I tagged off it couldn’t read then said I already paid..But that’s probably my bad swiping. Anyone know if you have to wait for the doors to open before you can tag off?
Things I would improve:
– Have some sort of IOU or credit buffer of a couple of dollars. So you don’t get stranded if you run out unexpectedly.
– No cash anymore please.. you can then use both doors to enter. (Or cash only on the wide, 2-lane front door buses)
– Internet top-up a must
– Haven’t used it enough but will it always have the voice prompt? Pretty annoying where an approving beep would suffice.
Oh, and the 25c top-up fee is a scam! I hope this goes once we get the real HOPs.
No you don’t have to wait for the doors to open to tag off. I usually tag off while the bus is still moving and just starting to slow down so once it stops I can jump off straight away. Particularly in the AM peak when there are lots of people tagging off at the same stop.
Is it really that slow? I’ve been using the Thales system in Amsterdam and find it very fast to detect the card. Can’t imagine their technology has gotten worse since the came to Auckland :). What do other people think? Is it slow?
The current extent of HOP implementation has been done exclusively by Snapper not Thales – which is why it’s slow. I have been assured that it’ll be much faster once we have the real system up and running.
This isn’t the Thales system, this is just a Snapper rollout. They have confirmed that they will be able to make the readers read Thales cards when that part comes online but who knows if it will be faster then or not. We will only be seeing Thales readers at train stations and ferry terminals and we don’t know yet who will provide the readers for the other bus companies as they can choose anyone they like providing it is compliant with the national standard (we know it won’t be Thales)
Never had a problem with tagging on/off with the card in my wallet, even in the middle and while having another RFID card in there.
I wonder if Thales will support mobile phones with NFC chip? Now that would be very handy, and could also be a really great way to get tourists to not use cash (once NFC equipped phones will be the norm rather then the exception).
I also think that there should be a much bigger difference between cash and non cash. Sadly, if you want to drive to the CBD from on the North Shore north of Constellation, you pay less if you pay cash than with HOP.
Same here regarding tagging on/off inside a wallet. Though I think the trick is to have the HOP card relatively close to one side of the wallet when it’s closed and you’re less likely to get issues. I think people pull their wallet away too fast, causing it not to work, because they think the scan should be faster.
Also, When I also had my Oyster card in my wallet HOP wouldn’t work for me (I got told to try again), however that may have been a one-off bad scan, who knows?
Yes. It is very very slow and often holds people up as much as paying cash.
OK, interesting to know that the Snapper implementation is much slower than Thales. Maybe that’s one more reason they lost the tender? For those frustrated by the current speed, rest assured that the Thales system they have here in Amsterdam works very fast. It seems faster than the Oyster card, but that’s just my gut feeling based on some unscientific tests ;).
I’ve been using HOP for a few weeks now and keep the card in the middle of my wallet and have only had it fail to read once (but worked on the second attempt).
few questions:
-i read somewhere that if you don’t have enough money in the card when you tag in, Snapper will lend you the money for the trip. Is there an interest or other kind of dishonor coming with that?
-if i don’t tag off with the Link what do they do?
-why don’t they just raise the 1 stage fare to 2$, say…tomorrow? 1 coin, faster boarding, round number, more revenue straight away and an incentive to get an Hop card.
-At the end of the day we pay these 25c more respect to the gorider, and i suspect they all go to Snapper?
-Did they think about using the data from the card movements to have a real time idea of the patronage and maybe find Bin Laden?
I’m sure the data will be put to good use, it’s a major benefit of advanced ticketing.
The 25c goes to the retailer that is recharging the card, my understanding is that is to encourage them to do it. I also believe there are a select few sites around (i.e. one in the snapper offices) that don’t have the 25c top up fee.
Yes they will be using the data. Once the Thales system goes online AT will be getting all of it and I imagine there could be some really cool stuff that it enables (but will probably take time)
I got pinged the 25c top up in the Wellington Snapper office – so got the ticket clipped twice so to speak. Not happy about that one!
20c goes to retailer 5c goes to Snapper. Snapper kiosks don’t charge money. I can confirm I wasn’t charged anything for topping up at Snapper office in Wellington.
Hi SOTNS,
When did you last top up at Snapper HQ? Back in April when replacing a snapped Snapper, I got pinged the top up charge.
Straight from my bank statement: 30 Mar 2011 POS W/D SNAPPER – KIO $20.00
And from Snapper website:
30/03/11 Balance Opening balance for this period 0.00
30/03/11 Top up Snapper Kiosk 20.00 0.00 20.00 20.00
31/03/11 Bus E-purse Courtenay Place – Paramount to -2.09 -0.37 2.46 17.54
…
So no fee at all. That was using EFTPOS at the kiosk to top up.
Right off to use the Kiosk next time! Thanks for that
what a complete scam. back in the day (yes, several decades ago), when i bought 10-trip tickets (the ones the driver clipped), the retail commission was built into the price. ffs, that is normal. do shops charge and extra 50 cents for a newspaper on top of the cover price as commission? no, it’s paid to them by the publisher or they buy stock at a wholesale price. what is wrong with these people??? is this just a Snapper scam or is AT going to pull this crap too?
@tochigi: I’m not trying to defend them, because I do think that they should have machines all around the place to top up HOP without a charge, but I do think that being able to top up HOP virtually on every corner is a good thing. And if it costs $0.25 for the $50 I top up with, then that’s a small price to pay for fantastic progress so far. That’s just my 2 cents.
i agree. they should have lot’s of self-service keyosks around the place where you can top up, with no extra charges. and the shops doing it should get a commission from AT, not from the customer as an add-on.
I don’t think it’s a scam – more just an incentive for retail outlets to offer top-ups. I guess you’ll be able to avoid the fee once online top-up is available? That’s fair enough – online top-up is way more efficient than doing it in store.
incentive for retail outlets? Hop should pay the commission, not the end user as an add-on fee. like i said, it works that way for almost everything else (except concert tickets, which are a scam).
It’s not a scam because you have the option of topping in a way that avoids the fee, i.e. use HOP outlets and (eventually) on the internet. That’s not a scam, it’s an incentive that recognises that the costs to HOP are lower when you use their systems, as opposed to a third party.
i can top up my card here in tokyo at any number of places and there is NO FEE. do other cities around the world charge a fee? why should it make any difference where you top it up? you are not buying anything, you are simply putting your account into credit. it’s a scam. they have your money to earn interest from, AND they want an extra fee. that is a scam.
No. Everywhere else just builds it into the cost of your fares, so you end up paying regardless – just that the costs are indivisible to you. Or do you think all that advanced ticketing equipment just turns up from outer space? It’s just like paying a fee to use your credit card, rather than your debit card, because it costs more to the retailer. It creates an incentive for people to pay by debit.
The other reason it’s a good idea is that it encourages you to top up a large amount at once, rather than lots of small amounts. In saying that I would not be bothered if they got rid of it. But I do suggest that it’s not a scam, just an example of passing costs onto consumers and letting them decide how to manage them. Like I said, I if you don’t like it then I suspect you can avoid the fee by topping up online (when it’s available).
so, tell me, where else in the world do cards like these incur fees to top them up? i’m genuinely curious.
and btw, i love the justification for the fee: “it encourages you to top up a large amount at once”… so that’s all right then… they “incentivise” customers to hand over even larger chunks of money so they can earn more interest off it. but no, it’s not a scam. not at all.
@Glan
You need enough money for 1 zone with Wellington’s Snapper system, otherwise you’ll be told to pay the driver. If you don’t have enough money for the full trip, your balance will go negative when you tag off. So you need to front up a minimum fare and Snapper lends you the rest, which isn’t so bad. To the best of my knowledge – which means that I’ve not checked my records for the few times I’ve been in the situation – Snapper doesn’t take a penalty for going negative. I could be wrong, though. I don’t pay enough attention to my balance.
That is correct. Also, there’s no penalty for going into credit.
I have two cards. One Hop for use on the North Star buses and a Nothern Pass for use on the Northern Express. I have found that they interfere with each other and I have to take the one I want to use out of my wallet. Looking at myHop on the website it is very specific as to which stop I used to get on and off the bus. I am hoping this information will be available to Auckland Transport as earlier this year it seemed we had surveyors along the Busway 1 or 2 days a week for about a month and that now seems to be a waste of rate payer money that could be be used as a deposit on the Rail Loop.
You know Northern Passess can be used on all North Shore buses right? Not just the NEX.
I think he meant Ritchies FastPass and not Northern Pass.
Northern Pass is a paper-ticket, which I really don’t think is interfering with HOP. On the other hand Ritchies Fast Pass is RFID, which probably IS interfering with the HOP.
How does that happen? The Northern Pass is just a piece of paper.
Are you confusing the Northern Pass with the Ritchies smartcard? They are not related.
@Stranded, snap! you beat me to it 🙂
@Andrew ;-))))
In Wellington when using snapper, one of the most irritating things EVER is people who pay with cash. Especially when there are tons of people waiting. I think a sign should be put near the doors of every bus saying those with cash allow those with snapper to board first and go to the back of the line. I hate waiting out in the cold and rain while some inconsiderate person is fumbling around with coins.
That’s actually not a bad idea! Another incentive for people to use HOP cards.
I’m on metrolink so we’ve only just swapped this week. I notice that the number of people paying cash has gone up over the last few weeks, hopefully more will get HOP cars once the system settles down.
Tagging off seems to be a problem, some people are taking 3-4 goes to get it to work. This was a known problem with the snapper system so it’s a shame the decided to roll out using this and give people a bad first impression.
Re: Tagging off LINK buses. They’ve thought about it well. You should ALWAYS tag on and off. No exceptions. Keeping it uniform is the key. The message must be clear. Saying that, I would be dissapointed, however, if they charged a penalty fee for not tagging off a LINK bus.
It would also be good for data collection purposes.
If you don’t tag off the Link bus they won’t be able to analyse passenger movements from/to.
Observation: a single reader at either doorway means a great deal of the potential benefits of the system are wasted. Other cities I’ve lived in put at least 4 on the bus, two at either end with one behind the driver, one on either side of the back door. Much, much faster.
Auckland, getting it half-right again.
All buses have 2 in the front. Some buses only have one in the back. These are mostly older buses with single doors. I am assuming that these will gradually be phased to quieter routes and eventually phased out altogether. Although they could be useful on busways if we were to put in fare paid zones at stops.
Where is the second reader in the front? I know about the snapper one on the right (boarding). I assumed the drivers receipt printer had a hop card reader in it but when I tryed to tag on I must have pressed a button that made it print something, and the driver told me to use the one on the right.
somebody else observed to me that ways to top up your Hop cards are not too widely available yet. She says she doesn’t go past a single place that allows her to top up.
I don’t think many people realise that they can top up their Hop card wherever you see the Snapper sign. I’ve noticed Hop signage on top of the Snapper pavement signs, so hopefully this will change.
A couple of comments:
1) Hold the Snapper / Hop card steady over the circle on the validator for a second and don’t wave it around.
2) I got charged a penalty the other day (driver reset the console!), but was surprised to see that the penalty wasn’t more than I would have paid anyway for the 2 stage trip anyway($3). Hopefully this is temporary because if punters cotton on to this then they might not feel the need to tag off on certain trips, thus losing valuable patronage data.
I remember hearing that the driver has to enter the route he is on at the start of the journey so the system knows the maximum possible fare for that specific bus, the idea being that if you were on a bus that went 5 stages the penalty fare would be a 5 stage fare etc.
I’ve heard (no idea how accurate this is) that one of the problems with Snapper in Wellington has been that sometimes a bus will change drivers in the middle of the route. This involves one driver logging out of the console, and another logging in (or something like that), and it apparently causes people to get charged the penalty fare.
so Homer Simpson is the lead software engineer at NZBUS?
Correct Matt L
I’ve noticed that the Snapper system, while speeding up non-cash boarding, has slowed cash boarding down compared to the Wayfarer machines as driver data entry is slower. Although that may be due in part to drivers getting used to the new system.
For the same reason, SuperGold cardholders board slowly as they need to be processed by the driver. Time for a SuperGold HOP card with a special beep so the driver can verify legit use?
I always tag on/off by just holding my closed wallet up to the scanner. It has never failed me and I have another RFID card in there also.. The key is placing it strategically in your wallet so that there is absolutely minimal ‘stuff’ between the card and the reader. The one more serious issue I have had on a couple of occasions is being charged a full adult fare, even though I usually get the student 40% discount. This is on the same route I always catch, no difference in bus stop etc. Snapper have been very good about it when I contacted them. They gave me a refund for the whole ride, not just the difference. They also informed me that this problem is appearing on several routes…
Link tonight, the front door was busy and the back door was open so i entered and i tagged in. Not possible, I had to go to the front door to tag in with driver apologizing for that…
I understand they’re scared someone might use the back doors not to pay, but this way everyone is penalized.
I wonder if anyone has run a cost benefit analysis on letting people tag on using the rear doors (which obviously can’t be observed by the driver) and having wardens patrolling buses at random (like in Melbourne) to fine people who attempt to abuse the system.
Probably the cost benefit analysis would be more expensive than letting someone travel without paying.
For the 2nd morning in a row the MyHop Account History pages can’t be accessed. Poor capacity planning perhaps?
The balance information provided in the account history is focused on e-money – why? I prefer to top up my sons card with 20 rides, but to check the balance I now have to count the rides. It also requires logging on to a web site (see point above) to check the balance, whereas previously he was able to tell me when his balance was running low.
My experience has been similar to those above re slower cash fares, and it seems that more people are using cash.
MikeG – The Hop readers will tell you when your balance is below $12 (and everyone else on board) when using e-money. Is it not doing it for the trips also?
Thanks Joshua. I’ve only been using HOP for a week (Metrolink bus) so my balance is above $12. I have heard the verbal ‘check your message’ from other users, but wasn’t sure what the threshold is.
I couldn’t top up with rides as the Newmarket Station machine was broken – hopefully not a sign of unreliable technology.
The account balance updates haven’t happened for 2 days in a row now…
Have been pleasantly surprised about the way the card works. I have been using it from inside the wallet, and have found it works each time – and regardless of whether I swipe the thicker or thinner side. So despite the ghastly roll-out, it seems to be bedding in ok. Of course you have to have a bus to get on first – for a nice comment on waiting for buses see pyxpuzzled.blogspot.com/
Just an update: I’ve registered a week ago my Hop card online and there’s still no balance or trip history. This morning I called and they said they have no clue and they can’t see the balance as well, and it happened in many cases. He said just Hope. They could have called it Hope card. I’m coming to realize it’s a scam, I was better off with the old go rider, but they didn’t leave any choice.