When Auckland Transport released details of the latest concepts for a southeast busway: along Ti Rakau Drive between Botany and Pakuranga and eventually extending all the way into Panmure, I hesitated and had a pretty good think about whether this was a step in the right direction. On the negative side, if this busway is built to an RTN standard then I think the chances of us ever getting what I’ve called the “Howick/Botany Line” become pretty remote – at least any time in the next 30 years.

It’s a pretty darn awesome railway line in my opinion – improving access to the whole southeast part of Auckland, providing a Botany to Britomart connection in about 25 minutes, avoiding the “what to do at Panmure question”, the lot. Here’s a map of my preferred route:But if I’m realistic, I realise that there was no real hope in hell that this railway line would happen any time soon. To avoid massive environmental effects, most of the section between Glen Innes and Highland Park would probably need to be in a tunnel, while most of the section between Clover Park and Manukau City would also have to be in a tunnel. All up, a project like this would probably have a pricetag of around $3 billion. While I think it’s probably a better spend on $3 billion than a North Shore Line (and certainly a better spend than another road-based harbour crossing), it’s damn clear that we’re unlikely to have such amounts of money rolling around any time soon to embark on something like this.

If southeast Auckland currently had at least half-decent public transport, the lack of funding for a rail project like the one above might not be such a problem. We could just squeeze out small improvements to the current service while going about the task of designating, designing and eventually funding a rail project such as this. A pretty similar process to what might happen on the North Shore. But the problem is that public transport in southeast is nowhere near half-decent; in fact it is utterly terrible. It needs an improvement that is significant, relatively affordable and – perhaps most of all – can be done quickly. In terms of those matters, I think the AMETI busway idea makes a lot of sense.

But that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t debate what the best solution is, taking an overall assessment of our options for the southeast – including both short-term and longer-term considerations. Engineer and public transport supporter Barry Palmer raised some interesting points in an email discussion and at Wednesday night’s Campaign for Better Transport meeting that I think are worth noting and discussing.

He says (with a bit of paraphrasing):

I was dismayed to read the Herald that there is to be provision for a busway in the AMETI development but not a word about any ultimate plan to convert this to light rail in due course.

I note particularly a recent EU report of research carried out in France, Austria and Switzerland on health hazards of traffic exhaust fumes found that: –

*Traffic induced Pollution costs the health system and therefore us about $700 per year per capita, (for NZ about $3 billion per year)

*Social and benefit costs for dependents of those killed or crippled by exhaust fumes is about $470 per year per capita, (for NZ about $2 billion per year).

These colossal amounts will merely be exacerbated along the corridors of the busways. Every new project that increases our exhaust fumes (diesel is 17 times more deadly than petrol which is bad enough) is another cost on our overloaded health budget increasing our rates of lung cancer, other cancers, bronchial and heart diseases.

I have often heard figures mentioning that air pollution in Auckland causes more deaths per year than the entire road toll across New Zealand. One only needs to walk up Victoria Street at around 5pm to smell the horrific fumes the are being emitted by the diesel buses. So I definitely agree with Barry that we should be concerns about emissions from diesel buses. He continues:

My second point is that apart from the above, light rail, although expensive in the beginning, will over time prove to be the less costly option. From the ATPA figures that I am consistently receive; light rail running and maintenance costs are regularly 20% and often 40% below that of a diesel bus operation. These cost comparisons are not immediately apparent either and ignorance of them amongst those who make critical decisions confer on us another substantial cost we could have saved. An LRV has two to three times the life of a bus, has less down time for maintenance and carries two to three times the number of passengers. When coupled a train of them can replace 10 buses (and 10 drivers).

This is an interesting point, and one that I’m interested in learning a bit more about. Undoubtedly light-rail is much more expensive to build than a busway, but if it’s cheaper to run (less staff per passenger, lower fuel costs, lower maintenance costs) at what point do the capital savings from the cheaper construction start to be a false economy? In the end, this may prove to be the telling matter which decides the point at which it is logical to turn the Northern Busway into a railway line: simply because continuing to operate it as a busway may become prohibitively expensive and inefficient.

I have a third point. Light Rail will always do a journey in 20 to 30% less time than a diesel bus. Because it doesn’t carry fuel and with electric motors with initial starting torques far superior to diesel engines and three independent braking systems (disc, regenerative and magnetic brakes on rails), it can accelerate and stop more than twice the rate of diesels and therefore maintain top speed for longer. In addition because of rail guidance its length can be as long as a street block so that its consequential multiple doors allow embarking and disembarking of passengers to be at least double that of a bus. It provides a smoother, quieter, fume-free ride.

Vehicle speed seems to be most dependent on issues like the level of priority given to the buses or trams, the speed they are boarded and the geometry of the route itself. Busways can theoretically offer many of the same measures – but for some reason they tend not to. You tend to need to validate your ticket in front of the driver, the lanes tend to be of a lower quality geometry and (at least until the median busway route was proposed) on-street bus lanes (as opposed to the Northern Busway) tend to be quite stop-start and are therefore greatly influenced by other traffic.

And now a fourth point. Light rail is independent of fossil fuels and would ensure that the eastern suburbs are protected in the inevitable event of an oil shortage. There are 18 main reasons I can supply that this will occur and electrification of public transport to that area is a must. Trolley bus would be a good interim measure and has a lot of the attributes of LRT including its less cost to run over its lifetime, but it does not equal LRT.

Peak oil really in the “elephant in the room” when it comes to future transport issues – something that I think will have a huge effect and will not be able to be mitigated through “lots of electric cars” as this government seems to think. That said, I’m not sure whether I would support trolley buses – as I think they can end up being the worst of both worlds in a tram/bus debate: they don’t offer the improved ride quality and enhanced capacity of a tram yet at the same time they don’t have the route flexibility and low capital costs of an independently powered bus.

Barry’s final point throws an interesting curve-ball into the whole debate: whether or not we should consider light-rail because of the ability to run ‘tram-trains’.

Now my final point is what I would describe as the king hit. Because of the development and outstanding success of a new vehicle now known as the tram-train we have a mode that can run on street-based tracks taking advantage of congestion-free narrow corridors wherever they are available and then access a rail corridor onto rail tracks (e.g. at Panmure through to Britomart and return) providing an unbroken congestion-free journey to the CBD.

I’m not sure how technically feasible these tram-trains (most famous in Karlsruhe) would be for our southeast RTN. I worry that the more “tram-like” they are, the more they would mess with regular trains on the Eastern Line between Panmure and Britomart; or the more ‘train like’ they are, the greater difficulties we would have actually running them on the street between Panmure and Botany.

Overall, I do think Barry makes some excellent points. But I wonder whether this is simply the wrong transport corridor to be focusing on for light-rail. As I’ve mentioned before, I think Dominion Road is probably the most suitable corridor for light-rail in Auckland: because of its existing high demand, because of its existing intensified corridor land-use patters, because of its enormous potential to further develop as a development corridor and so forth. Ti Rakau Drive really doesn’t have many of these qualities. Most of the passengers catching buses along Ti Rakau Drive would probably be coming from areas further south and further east than Botany, on a bunch of routes that would converge and then travel along the busway. Unless we could get the tram-trains to work, we would be forcing a bus-to-tram transfer at Botany and then a tram-to-train transfer at Panmure. While I’m all in favour of building a system around transfers I think that takes things one step too far! Furthermore, in terms of the pollution issues, most of the buses along this busway wouldn’t continue into the city, where pollution caused by diesel buses is probably worst. Once again, if we want to make an improvement to bus pollution and reduce its health effects, we would be better off focusing on a route like Dominion Road which does run into the heart of the city.

So while Barry does make good points and what he says does make sense, I still lean towards still supporting the busway model over light-rail: because of the particular characteristics of this transport corridor. At some point in the future we may wish to upgrade it (if fuel became exceedingly expensive perhaps), although if we reached that point we may actually be wanting to reconsider constructed the Howick/Botany Line after all. A busway can provide a lot of benefit quickly at a relatively low cost – so I think it’s my preferred option for now. As long as we put it down the middle, not to the side!

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35 comments

  1. Agreed. Without wanting to start off an exchange with Barry over the relative virtues of the two modes, it would be fair to say that at the levels of demand you could reasonably expect along that corridor, an LRT implementation would cost about four times what would reasonably be expected of a median busway. LRT would probably attract more passengers, but the marginal cost of those extra passengers really doesn’t bear thinking about.

    The French are regarded as the pioneers of modern LRT, but they have developed some busways as well. One of the newer ones is in Nantes, and this presentation has more details. Cost, even for the French, was a critical factor.

    http://www.bhls.eu/IMG/pdf/Nantes_presentation_cost_26_05_08.pdf

    In terms of running costs, a network bus service does cost more to operate than a trunk LRT service – Barry is right at this point – but a trunk bus service’s operating costs are probably on a par. Why? Because while LRT is certainly cheaper to run at the peak (one driver, many more passengers), once you get into the offpeak, it is one driver and a smaller bus carrying the same passengers as one LRV (one driver and a lot of empty seats). So the costs balance out.

  2. Light rail is also not so good for this route as it is not a corridor but a low density area with dispersed employment. Also the density is high enough so that infill is not feasible, but not high enough to support a light rail corridor service.
    Light-rail works best where it can drive redevelopment, thats why Dominion Road and maybe Great South Road are best suited.
    A hub and spoke bus network will work best in the short and medium term.
    This network will deliver short term gains as well as providing a base that can be re-oriented to serve rail once that arrives.

  3. The major, major problem with tram-train is that though they have greater capacity than a bus they have far far less than a heavy rail train. This means running more trains more often, worsening the Britomart capacity problem and making timetabling in express trains impossible. In future it would also drain valuable capacity from the CBD loop.

  4. The train track gauge in NZ is the same as the tram track gauge in Europe (a metre) so it should be easy and feasible to combine street trams with our current “train” network. I’ve been on the Karlsruhe ‘train-tram’. Most of its tracks are separated from the main roads, except in the city centre (where a large part of the CBD is pedestrianised anyway). Bonn and Streabsourge tarms are ‘long-ish’ too and run in narrow city centre streets: http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQD0xoFO-LseUPR8CgG3dM5TTiulnwJDLPer7-txIFj8c2bmJ7k
    There is nothing “heavy” about the NZ rail system.

    1. I don’t know what’s with the obsession with track gauge. Some of the heaviest trains in the world: in Australia and South Africa, run on the same gauge as our trains. It doesn’t make much difference at all for what we’re trying to achieve in Auckland.

      1. The issue with track gauge is that if we went for standard gauge trams we could buy standard trams (or even second hand ones to get ourselves started at lower cost.) If we opted for narrow gauge we would need to get custom ones. I understand ultra low floor trams have the wheels protrude into the cabin. (they did in the lower floor of the hong kong ones).At narrow gauge the position of the wheel boxes would require the interior to be massively re-designed. this would probability make low floor narrow gauge custom trams very expansive, meaning we need to opt for mid or high floor ones.

  5. It appears that Auckland has sensibly gone with the same tram gauge as Melbourne, Sydney and Adelaide for the waterfront loop. This will pay dividends in the future, they should design all the standards to match Melbourne to make sourcing vehicles and componetry that much cheaper.

    I posted a comment on tram-trains on the CBT board summarising why I think it’s more trouble that its worth for Auckland:

    -Gauge: Trams are almost always standard or metre gauge, our trains are 3″6 (so needs custom tram gauge or dual guage track)

    -Power systems: Trams are usually 600 or 750v DC, our trains will be 25kv AC (so need dual-voltage power systems on the trams)

    -Platform heights: Trams usually have full low floors and platforms at kerb height, trains are much higher (so need high level tram platforms in the street, and no opportunity for simple street stops).

    -Signalling systems and automatic overrun protection: Trams use traffic lights for signalling, full signalling and protection used on trains. (trams need to be specially equipped)

    -Impact standards: Trams are usually designed to street crash standards like buses or trucks, not to the impact standards of heavy/freight railways (so need specially built heavy trams)

    Probably the biggest issue is the fact that even if the CBD tunnel is built the Auckland rail system will be plagued by capacity constraints. Sending a tram carrying about 200 people to occupy a slot that could be used by an EMU with 1,000 people is probably not a good idea.
    By all means lets built trams/light rail, but keep it at street level where it belongs.

    1. Agreed, this is also wht getting those old trams from Portugal that they have in Henderson was a bad idea, the worst thing for Auckland to do would be to end up with a non-standard rail and tram system (non-standard in that outside of the colonies no one uses narrow gauge).

  6. Wouldn’t it be cheaper to just bulldoze these eastern suburbs, planning disasters that they are? 🙂

    The eastern suburbs looks too difficult to serve, can it really be justifiable to ever spend $3 billion dollars there over reinforcing other more well defined corridors, existing routes, and areas with better intensification potential? They don’t really have any centres, they don’t aggregate flows from other downstream areas, they don’t have any well formed corridors, their street patterns are very dendritic and unwalkable/unbikable, the density is very low. It’s just a big mistake and flatbush is still being built!

    I’d go with light rail or tram-trains. Build a light rail line from the Manukau station up Te Irirangi Drive to Te Rakau Drive (major interchange with busses here), then along Te Rakau Drive to Panmure. At Panmure either just force a mode change, or run tram trains into the city on the existing rail line. Cost: $500 million approx.

    There are some variations on this that you could combine with light rail in other parts of the city and possible conversion of the Airport -> Onehunga -> Penrose -> Newmarket section of line into light rail only.

    1. erentz, why piss about with light rail? Why fracture the network, the tunnel under the motorway that links Man City [hey I quite like that] with Botany etc, should, in my view, be done as a first stage. But in proper rail so it expands the network, and is connected, and helps beef up the whole system. So here’s my programme: CBDRL, followed by Onehunga to Man City [via Airport], then Man City to Highland Park, then Highland Park to GI. When the NS Busway needs upgrading to rail with attendant harbour tunnels I’m unsure about. I’m also a little unclear about the best route on the shore, Albany and Massey Uni desperately need linking in.

      Meantime the bus RTNs in the AMETI project are complimentary to this line. A proper feeder network needs to be planned of course. Highland Park needs to be well connected to its hinterlands, Bucklands Beach, Howick etc. All with REAL integrated ticketing, naturellement. Done.

  7. There’s no way we’re going to be getting any more than the busway as part of AMETI in the short term, it’s great that AMETI appears to be undergoing a makor rethink. I agree that trams should be going into the innercity suburbs thereby reducing bus movements in the CBD and also catering for parts of the city where walking is an option. Out in Botany I don’t think people are walking save to get to the bus stop to go downtown. Places like Dominion Rd are lined with destinations making the hop on hop off nature of a tram ideal. We just need the Dominion Rd – New North Rd intersection sorted out – has there ever been an real consideration by council to return it to a normalish intersection?

  8. For me this Rail Line is the single best idea I’ve ever seen for Auckland. A complete game changer, it brings the whole of the southeast into play not only with the city but also with its estranged old Manukau City partners to the west. It breaks both the dividing line of the southern motorway, linking Manukau city centre [and of course the airport] with the newer fast growing suburbs to the east, and the barrier of the Tamaki Estuary, for the first time moving people as the crow flies instead of squeezing everyone through the unhappy Panmure funnel.

    I grew up in Howick and I know how isolated it can be out there, both physically and culturally, the bus takes longer now than it did when I was one of those alienated teenages desperate for some sign of life other than the bland conformity of the ‘burbs. Imagine being able to skip class at my alma mater [Pak Col] cross the road, ride a train, and be downtown in 25 mins, but also K’rd, or points further west…. Or zap south and west, Manukau City, Onehunga…. whatever no need to own a car.

    It is a complete tragedy that important transit decisions are all made by bald, overweight men is suits who have forgotten that they were ever alive.

    1. The interesting thing is that there’s actually a pretty decent route available for the line between Highland Park and Clover Park. It’s just the two ends which are difficult.

      I doubt you’d find too many other places in Auckland (aside from next to or down the middle of motorways) where it would actually be possible to place a heavy rail line through without tunnelling pretty much the whole thing.

  9. Is there any precedent in the world where extensive PT infrastructure has been added to an existing suburb that is so low density(and poorly connected) works? Just asking.

  10. Perth, Washington Metro may count too?
    Also note that due topography (ie water) there is very heavy traffic congestion due to the pressure points over the Tamaki Estuary. This simplifies the travel patterns making things easier for rail to take off.

  11. High density is not a prerequisite for successful PT. See Paul Mees’ book Transport for Suburbia which shows how a networked system is the solution for more dispersed populations. Particularly his detailed analysis of Zurich. Anyway suburbia was first made possible by rail, the car came second, trains and suburbia are old friends and actually make for much more pleasant places; the older, leafier, more valuable parts of AK were built by tram remember. South east AK developed on a car only model and is a great example of the limits of this idea: it is increasingly unworkable. This line is would only really work with feeder busses and good big park + ride at Highland Park. It could not work on walk up alone. Although of course it would stimulate more intense growth around stations. Arguing that it has to be like Tokyo before trains will work is simply a way to argue against the one thing that will promote natural intensification.

    Also if only there was more coordination of the all modes of PT in AK it would be way more effective than it is now. For that to happen there needs to be one over-ridding authority with the power to direct routes and timetables. And a system that allows cross subsidy, in other words, where operators are not resistant to running quiet routes because the pay off is in the growth of the entire model not its parts. Build an integrated, widespread, efficient system, it will be used and subsidy per trip will fall, as in Zurich. And AK would be a soooo much better place to live and work and play. And be less hostage to the price of oil and the cost of fumes.

    1. So you think the only way it would work is park and rides and intensification around stations? The reason I asked is that I looked at the proposed stations and cant imagine more than a hundred or so riders using some of those stations at peak hours (due to low density and a bad street network). I didnt consider park and ride since it wasn’t mentioned. I must admit i have low interest for fixing these places that people have chosen to live in (excepting of course the poor kids). Its clear that our public investment is limited and we should be trying to get the best value for our investment. I would like to read mees’ book. i will check out zurich for reference.

      1. Problem is that Botany Downs already is costing the taxpayer vast amounts in new unfrastructure, if we’re going to be spending the money anyway why not on somethung that gives better returns. Also, I don’t think people choose to live in the area and therefore be car dependent, they buy what they can afford and often that happens to be way out in the suburbs – now if affordable terraced (not leaky ones) existed in places like Avondale (which has a vast amount of empty land sitting around) people would probably choose that over Botany – but that’s a whole different topic.

        Comparing Zurich to Botany Downs is a weird comparison, the only real comparison would be that outside of Zurich there are a lot of small towns all of which have commuter rail (in Auckland motorways/arterials) connecting them to the city i.e. a lot of people commute into Zurich from similar distances away from Auckland’s CBD. Otherwise, what is considered Zurich city is relatively densely populated and that shouldn’t be confused with Zurich the canton i.e. the state which has a lot of small towns separated apart from one another by farming and therefore overall probably has a low population density, lower than Auckland I’d guess.

        1. Exactly RTC, read the chapter in Mees, the point is that Zurich the Canton, with the city at the centre, is very low density, and the success of the PT system there is that it is just that, a system. Or more precisely an integrated system, a Network. So first, AK is not that low density, and second, we can see from other places that with a well designed and run network even lower density areas can work extremely well and affordably. And as for not wanting to spend more on somewhere you don’t live, that is one of the subtexts of Michael Barnett’s recent article, he’s not going to catch a train so he doesn’t want any money spent on it. I don’t really know what to say to that except that the whole network functions better with more reach and riders, everywhere will get better service and high frequency with a broader network with more users. And, incidently the roads will run better too, so there is self interest in there too- but me, I just want a much better city for everyone.

      2. You completely inverted what I said: an integrated network, primarily feeder busses, will make this route work. THAT will then lead to more intensification, more, but how much depends on other factors such as zoning and the price of car ownership [esp. oil]. I fled the suburban east on the very day of my last school exam and will never live there again, nor hardly ever visit, but I know that if you fix the ‘burbs the centre will be fantastic. Why does AK have such a scratchy theatre culture for example? All things economic and cultural need punters and AK is so fractured and immobile that we often have the infrastructure of much smaller places. Get the far flung connectivity and the centre will thrive and we’ll get ‘more city, please’

  12. Hi jarbury…remember the original post where saljen also had the lin running northwards a little to peigeon mountain road. Look..the crossing of the tamaki river can be a rail bridge..I see no reason why not…just give some decent height in the middle for boat users to pass under. remember there is a rail bridge near plimmerton and nones complains about it..and that it actually closer to houses as the crow flies than this tamaki one would be…as for the te irangi rise..just go a little to the north and there’s no need for a tunnel there. that leaves the only tunnel near pakuranga college..now right pakuranga college buildings are getting old (circa 1960) the college could move next door to the green space and put rail through where the college is now. Between there and the tennis club is 1 km max I reckon..that’s only tunnel you need!
    ( I used to live in Imogene Way and take the ferry to work in cbd)

  13. The great thing about a bridge would be the side benefit for walking and cycling, but beware the locals getting outraged if their view is going to change. Personally I like a [well designed] bridge in a estuarine scene but then i like wind turbines too [sculpture!]. Car lobby + penny pinchers + outraged locals is a hard battle to fight. Doesn’t matter at this stage, let’s get the route identified and protected and sort the details later…. Still think build it from the south first….

  14. I agree Patrick, a bridge would not only be far cheaper, but it would provide for a walking and cycling crossing and if done right, a landmark for the neighbourhood. The height of it need not be any taller than the bridges up river.

    I was trying to think of concessions to the local moneyed elite to ‘compensate’ for their views changing. A foot crossing for strolls and jogging over to Pt England reserve probably ins’t going to cut it. There is the possibility of a Farm Cove station, but that probably won’t interest them. The only thing I can think of to really sway the locals would be to have car lanes on the bridge too, but that would be disastrous for traffic.

    As for the idea of a long bored rail tunnel between Manukau and Te Irirangi, I think it isn’t necessary. Not long ago I had a look and the elevations of the terrain on the route. My conclusion was the best option would be to continue the Manukau Branch in a shallow trench roughly parallel to Wiri Station Rd (possibly capped over where appropriate), to cross Great South Rd and the motorway on a viaduct/bridge (i.e. about the height of the motorway overpass), then continue in a fairly shallow cut-and-cover tunnel under Redoubt Rd and Hollyford Dr (which skirts around the crest of the steepest part of the hill rather than going straight under it). Hollyford Dr actually has a large corridor reserve down one side, so the line could remain in an open trench in the middle of the street and save a lot of money.

    So this could be done without an expensive TBM or a long deep tunnel, all that would be required are about 3-4 properties at the tunnel portal locations.

  15. Even better Nick, so starting from the south is even more viable…… I suspect one of the reasons this hasn’t been on Len’s plans is for fear of being accused of bias to his old haunt. But then we all get accused of only caring about the CBD…. But the real issue is the more extensive the network the better the whole will work.

    1. I think it’s also the fact that he can’t really bite off more than he can chew and the CBD tunnel is one major rail project ready to go and even that will be a struggle for him to achieve.

  16. He campaigned on three projects, CBD tunnel, airport rail, and North Shore rail.

    The first two are worthwhile, the third was probably just to win over the ‘me too’ Shoreites (saying “but the government just built you a brand new busway” doesn’t win votes). The lack of the outer eastern line might be to avoid being seen as favouring the south, but in all reality it just not on the radar except for a passing mention in the AMETI reports. Brown probably had no idea where to start on it, if he thought it was a starter at all.

    1. Well a North Shore rail line probably will be necessary in the timeframe he mentioned which was to start it in the 15 year i.e. 2025 period.

  17. On that rail map, why have you put all the rail stations in the middle of park land? There is going to be hardly anyone a short walk from the stations except for clover park.

  18. “(non-standard in that outside of the colonies no one uses narrow gauge).”

    “the colonies” describes a fairly large chunk of the world. Narrow gauge is still 3rd most common in the world, making up 9% of track according to wikipedia.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Track_gauge

    I fail to see what all the fuss is about, when i took a train from moscow to bejing, at the mongolian/chinese border they just jacked up the train and changed the wheels over, barely delayed us at all in the grand scheme of things 🙂

  19. The Highland Park and Botany stations are next to ‘town centres’, or things that will hopefully be redeveloped to be town centres.
    However overall the eastern line will be a largely bus fed line. Probably wont be much room for park and ride, and low density and terrible urban design so not much walk up catchment either.

  20. Yeah exactly, not many people live near highland park, it’s all highway and big box retail. People are not going to travel to highland park on the train, the catchments for these small local ‘town centers’ are not fed the rail line. So for ALL these stations, everyone first has to get a local bus to the train station. Why not put the stations somewhere that a decent number of people are in walking distance?

    I used to have to get a bus first to get to the nearest tube station in london (and i could walk it in 12 mins when i wasn’t feeling lazy). But that’s because i lived in a low density area right next hampstead heath ( a massive park ). Here’s it’s the opposite, the stations right next to lloyd ellesmere park (sp?), pakuranga country club, hayman park etc.

  21. Alternatively the route could turn left (west) at Highland Park and go along Pakuranga Rd. Does it REALLY need to be six lanes wide like a motorway? Then across to Panmure via St Kentigans to Kings Rd area, or across to Sylvia Park with the SE arterial. Pie in the sky for 2090.

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