Users of Newmarket train station on Friday night would have seen some new additions to the station. On the concourse above the platforms the first fare gates have started to be installed ready to be used when the real HOP system finally goes live. Thanks to reader Alan Wilkins who sent me these photos (I had been planning a trip to get some but this saved me from having to do so). We can see four gates, the middle two appear to be bi directional with a HOP reader on each end while the outside two are unidirectional and I assume that which ones sides are in operation will change depending on peak flows.
Fare gates will be installed at both Newmarket and Britomart and the thinking is that as most trips pass through one of these stations on their journey then the majority of people will be forced to tag on/off at some point. Over time though I suspect we will see a lot more trips beginning and ending on other parts of the rail network so hope that we can eventually roll them out to a few other key stations too. I believe that New Lynn, Manukau and the new Panmure station have all been designed to allow them to be installed in the future.
Edit: After reading some of the comments I am now convinced that there are only three gates here which means that there will either be a barrier installed out to the wall by station square or there will be a manual gate. Due to the layout of Newmarket station there will be other gates but these are just the first ones installed.
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Great to see these going in – hopefully they will mean that fare evasion goes down rather than up once HOP goes live on the rail system. Also potentially this means that actual HOP implementation on the rail network mightn’t be too far away.
One little nit-pick. It seems as though the uni-directional gates are both on the right hand side of the bank of gates. A hangover from having them built by a French company?
Four machines, 3 gates, 3 readers each side. Appears to me the same as London. All gates pictured hear bi-directional, no problem.
True…. it just looks like there’s an extra gate.
They look a lot like these ones in Singapore. However, unlike the London oyster ones there is no slot for a paper ticket. Does this mean we will have single trip tickets with RFID chips in them (maybe like this)? Or will there be separate gates for customers using HOP?
Sorry, I meant to say “for customers NOT using HOP”
Those Singapore ones are designed for people to keep left, though, so why can’t ours be on the right (that is, left) side?
Think about it please, pass card with right hand, move through, gate passes on right. Same as cars in Nz.
frotang is right, there are only three gates and they are all bidirectional, in his post Matt says there are four gates and that the ones on the side are omnidirectional, but this is wrong. This diagram (of my own creation) shows how it will work. What is confusing is the empty space to the sides which I have indicated will be filled in with my red line.
(I have tried to embed it but I don’t think it will work)
I meant to give credit to Dunkirk in my comment too.
When I read the post I agreed with Matt’s assumption, but Dunkirk is defiantly correct.
To see my illustration in real life you only need to look to Singapore (albeit with more than three gates).
Here is a picture of a three gate set-up in Singapore using thales technology like ours.
We will assign users the gates on the left though (or so I assume – but it seems it is fully possible).
the single-trip tickets in Singapore are the same as the regular “tickets” (i.e. RFID-based cards like the HOP card). You have to pay a $1 deposit for each card when you buy it (so, if your fare is $3.60, you’ll have to pay $4.60), and you can recover your deposit at the card machine when you get off the train.
Presumably those travelling on paper ticket will be let through by attendants.
In Dubai on the metro the paper tickets have a RFID chips and they work well.
However ideal that sounds, it just feels like it must be really expensive.
If Snapper can justify selling their cards at $10 a pop (although probably at a very high margin) can we really afford to give one away (with the exception that they would be paper not plastic) for every $2 ticket?
I may be wrong but it seems like operating costs would go through the roof without a near 100% HOP uptake or a huge extra charge for single tickets (not that either of these is undesirable, as the second would lead to the first).
Well that what they to in dubai they cheapest ticket is is 68cents (NZD). So i think it should be the way to go.
In a lot of places overseas like Singapore they recover the card at the end i.e. you scan as normal at the start then pop it in a slot when you get off.
Snappers are $10 each because they can go $10 into negative balance. If they charged less than that people could just keep buying new snappers and getting free credit on negative balance.
The reported cost of paper RFiD tickets in Melbourne was about a dollar a ticket. So charging at least a dollar a ticket extra for single paper tickets would work fine.
An extra charge for paper tickets is appropriate. You charge people for one off convenience, and recover the extra costs involved in issuing and managing single tickets. They should be priced at a point where they don’t drive away very occasional users or stop new users from taking the bus for the first time, but they should be significant more expensive than recharge fares so that anyone who uses PT more than a couple of times a month will get themselves a HOP.
Whatever system they go with, it will need to be able to validate the paper tickets printed out in buses, and AFAIK they are just ordinary paper dockets. They are not “readable” so it will be necessary to have a manual gate for these users, and also for someone to check the ticket at stations or on the train.
I don’t think necessary to give cash paying users the benefit of integrated ticketing between trains and buses (or at all).
As you have pointed out it will be costly when it comes to marginal operating costs as we will need a lot of staff to manually validate cash tickets purchased on other journeys/modes.
If they want to take advantage of integrated ticketing they can just get a HOP card, which in turn will speed up the system.
It’s win-win.
Well it happens, and has happened for years. You can hop on a bus, and buy a Discovery ticket, then use it on trains, ferries and buses. Removing that ability would be a step backward.
“Just get a HOP card” is not an option for casual users, as it’s not a convenient thing to do. You have to do some research first to find where they can be bought, then travel across town to one of those places.
Judging by similar systems overseas, an anonymous reloadable HOP will be available at most dairys, convenience stores and gas stations all over Auckland. Plus you’ll be able to order one online or by phone and have it posted to you, either anonymous or registered to your name, address and bank account. You’ll probably be able to buy them from the ticket machines at train, bus and ferry stations too (although some systems only have top up available).
Geoff, you seem to think that HOP will be the same as the old ticketing system, where you have to line up at Britomart to buy tickets. Surely you realise it will be an entirely new, state of the art ticketing system which will have entirely new way to buy cards and credit.
So I do think that just get a HOP card is an option for casual users. And of course you only need to do it the first time. If people are really casual then they can use cash singles, if they want integrated passes then they just have to grab a card if they don’t have one already.
I’m with Hamish O here. Sounds very expensive to install RFID into paper tickets.
It’s not costly at all – somewhere in the vicinity of a cent per ticket. And it’s done elsewhere – Atlanta had them when I last visited.
They have recently scrapped the introduction of paper RFiD singles in Melbourne, there the reported cost of the blanks was around a dollar a ticket, not a cent.
Not that I think that’s a problem, there should be at least a dollar differential on single issue tickets to get the clear majority of users onto HOP.
Amsterdam has paper RFID tickets too. Single ride for 1hr costs €2.30, and a 72-hour ticket costs €16.
It’s hard to tell from the pictures, and it’s probably been discussed here before, but is there a gate for wheelchair users, pram users, etc.? Need to ask the stupid questions to make sure no one has forgotten about these people!
There is a lot of space on the station square side of the gates. Maybe they’re going to have a manually operated gate there for wider users and those who are confused by the electronic gates. Mr Anderson suggested that such a gate might also be needed for cash paying customers who have bought a ticket, unless we are going with RFID enabled cash tickets (which I find unlikely (see above)).
The gate on the left ( nearest station square) appears to be about 1.5 times the width of the others
That will hopefully be the gate for wheelchair users/ people with suitcases on wheels etc.
And people with prams, and bikes, and folks carrying parcels or shopping bags or other luggage. I used to use the wide gate all the time when carrying my groceries so I didn’t have to shimmy in sideways like a crab.
I think you’re right Greenwelly, I didn’t notice it at first.
Once stickers like this are put on it will be very clear.
I wonder though, if there is only one wider gate it must therefore operate in both directions, so to stop two people trying to use it at once will that wider gate only be able to be used by ‘wider’ passenger (pram e.t.c.), leaving only one gate per direction for ‘regular’ passengers?
If this is the case I would have to wonder why they didn’t order a couple more.
Remember this is Newmarket not Britomart. And there might be another bank of gates – if I remember the layout correctly.
Yes I think there will be some more between the lifts. This is an old image of the station design and you can see fare gates between the lifts and you can also just make out the ones that have been installed on the station square side.
That seems to make sense.
I just hope that two people trying to use one wider gate won’t cause any ongoing confusion – especially with tourists.
Maybe the wider gates will be one way way only and a ‘wider’ passenger will be limited to one bank of gates depending on if they’re entering or exiting.
A single wider gate is fairly common overseas. No problem really, just the first person who gets there activates it for heading their way while the person going the other way needs to wait.
Yes- that’s how they operate in Singapore.
In Brisbane if you did not have a smart card they had an attendant that operated a gate with a card to let you though. This was at most inner city stations, the outer suburbs all had at a minimum a ticket machine and tag on posts, some also had a information office.
This seems like the most realistic scenario for how they will operate it in Auckland.
Personally I would prefer it if we either had RFID chipped paper tickets or casual users ‘borrowed’ a HOP card with a deposit.
However, I think the scenario described above for Brisbane is more likely what we will get.
One thing that has occurred to me,
Has transport legislation been updated yet to allow these to actual be legally used to prevent unpaid entry into “tag on zones”
Currently all the acts/regs/bylaws I have seen talk about offences being committed if intending to evade a fare while undertaking “travel in or upon”… and that “Passengers without tickets to pay fare to guard”
Given this, I would surmise that it is totally legal to jump the barriers and then pay the guard on the train, and with rent-a-cop security unable to physically intervene they would do nothing to actually stop you……
Guards on the trains won’t be taking payments, so how would that work?
The legislation obviously states somewhere that people must have the right ticket (or other proof of payment) to use the trains. If tagging on and off becomes the only way to get the right ticket then a simple interpretation is that anyone not using the fare gate is intending to travel without paying, and therefore has no right to access the train system.
If it takes an amendment to tidy up the legislation then so be it, no biggie.
I don’t think there’s any legislation requiring people to have tickets. Such things are covered by the operator’s Conditions of Carriage (Veolia’s are at http://www.veoliatransport.co.nz/media/docs/20120702_Conditions_of_Carriage_-_latest_update.pdf), and there is no legal ability for the operator to do anything but require payment of the fare. If anybody is discovered travelling without a ticket, all the operator can do is charge them the appropriate fare – there is no requirement to pay a fare unless one is demanded.
“Preventing” unpaid entry to paid zones would mean that such entry would have to attract some sort of penalty, but that’s not possible under current legislation – and I can’t see such a law change being high on the government’s agenda.
That’s correct, it will be perfectly legal to jump the fare gates, in the same way that it’s legal to enter a shop without prepaying for the goods you intend to purchase. Fare evasion does not take place until you complete your journey without paying, and even then it must have been demanded from you. If it is not, then there’s no evasion taking place, and you have not commited theft.
There would need to be an overhaul of certain legal principles in order to make it a crime to not pay for a service before it has been provided to you, and this is highly unlikely to happen. This is one of the reasons why people who don’t pay will likely just be asked to leave the train, and not issued fines.
There would need to be an overhaul of certain legal principles in order to make it a crime to not pay for a service before it has been provided to you,
There is no need to overhaul legal principles, just update the current laws,
It is legal to enforce such “fare paid zones” in most other jurisdictions that share a similar legal history as us (UK, Australia, Canada,US etc)
You currently have situations in NZ where you must pay to enter an area before receiving a service (places like Rainbows end spring to mind), all that is required is tinkering with the appropriate regs,
Its not like negotiating the treaty of ghent or anything, there is no “new law”, just application of existing principles…
I think you’re confusing private rules with legalities. Your example of entering Rainbows End on a prepay basis is correct, but if you enter without paying (i.e., climbing over the fence) you are not actually breaking any law, and therefore the most action you face is being told to either pay or leave. It will be the same with the new ticketing system (just as it is with the current system). If you go past the gates without paying, or enter a train without paying, the worst you face is being told to pay or leave. In both the Rainbows End and railway examples, it is only if you refuse to pay or leave that you commit a crime (in this case, the crime of wilful trespass).
The calls for enforcement in the form of financial penalty is where changes in legal principles would be required, and therefore is why it won’t happen. It’s not a law change we are talking about, it’s a change to legal principles, and they cannot be made without good cause, nor wider ramifications outside the area you want it to affect.
The other countries you refer to do not have our exact same legal principles.
It’s an interesting system as in our system with buses, they are all on the individual buses.
I guess with a train it would cost too much to fit them to the individual carriages.
Having a prepaid area or tag on posts at the station is superior to tagging on as you board as it allows for people to board freely without having to line up to tag on like on buses. In the best bus-way systems like Bogotá’s TranzMilenio they use gates like this too.
Fare gates also are actually more expensive than having readers on each bus/carriages, so no, it is not cost but efficiency that has made AT choose to use this system, plus it is what has worked successfully in countless places overseas for decades.
“Judging by similar systems overseas, an anonymous reloadable HOP will be available at most dairys, convenience stores and gas stations all over Auckland. ”
Funny but our system (in Christchurch) doesn’t allow that. The bureaucrats have insisted that every card has to be encoded with the user’s name and birthdate, so you can’t buy them just anywhere. I have long believed tourists and the like should be able to buy the cards on the bus. The fact is the Bureaucrat’s insistence on this means the cards probably cost a lot more than they should.
If Christchurch’s system was even close to ideal we would just be replicating it in Auckland instead of spending close to $100m on a new one.
Already in the temporary Snapper system, branded as HOP, cards do not have to be registered unless you are eligible for a concessionary fare (which most tourists using PT are not).
[Geoff, you seem to think that HOP will be the same as the old ticketing system, where you have to line up at Britomart to buy tickets]
I’ve never once lined up at Britomart to buy a ticket. The current system is the easiest system on the planet – you just hop on the train and away you go. From a user persepctive, Auckland has the easiest form of ticketing, right now.
The new system will be fine as long as a one-off user can walk up to a railway station anywhere on the network and buy a ticket right then and there. If there’s ever a requirement to have a ticket before reaching the station then that’s a step backwards. But AFAIK such a scenario is not planned, and one-off users will be able to buy a paper ticket at any station.
Not sure why you refer to lining up at Britomart. That must be some HOP thing?
When many people try and buy a ticket at once there will not be enough machines/counters for everyone to use at once, so everyone will have to line up and wait their turn at the machine/counter.
That’s one of the inefficiencies that comes from switching ticket purchasing from onboard to preboarding. People like to rave about electronic ticketing, but the truth is the old system is the easiest and most efficient system possible, from a user perspective, because ticket purchasing/validating is done during the journey, whereas the new system requires you to spend time ahead of your journey to buy/validate your ticket. Basically, the new system will be cheaper to operate, but will be slower for users. I guess that’s progress!
Hopefully a large fare difference will ensure those not using HOP are simply the minority and that the machines are not too crowded because of this.
For the majority of users the new system will be more convenient as it requires minimal effort: no thinking about fare zone, no pulling a card out of a wallet, no being disturbed by a ticket collector, and with automatic top ups from credit cards there will be no prepayment either!
Most efficient, that’s a good one Geoff. It is frequently too busy on the trains for staff to collect tickets meaning heaps of free trips. Add to that lots of other problems like it being really easy for people to fare evade due to staff laziness etc.
It is also much slower, doing it the way we do. With the real Hop I could just have my card automatically reloaded and swipe it over the reader as I enter the station, no lining up, not hassles with train staff, no having to manually reload or buy a ticket.
I said the current system is the easiest and most efficient for users. You don’t have to do anything at all before boarding, and it just doesn’t get any easier or quicker than having to do nothing.
Also, your examples of fare evasion are not actually fare evasion at all. If nobody sells you a ticket, you haven’t commited fare evasion. But for all the flaws in the current system, there are fewer opportunities in the current system for fare evasion than in the new system, because they are planning to do away with ticket checking, even though the new system is merely a change in the way tickets are sold, and doesn’t require any change to checking. Reduction in ticklet checking is a separate issue, born from a desire to lower wage costs, and could have been introduced at any time over the years, regardless of whether tickets are sold manually or electronically. As I’ve said many times, if there’s a worry about increasing fare evasion because of a decision to not check tickets, then keep checking tickets.
Geoff,
Every individual ticket must be collected in the current model because they have to accept the cash payments t the same time, plus punch out multi-rides.
We could not switch to a model where tickets are prepaid (with random checking) without electronic ticketing as the lines for buying your ticket would be so long, as everyone who wasn’t a regular train commuter would have to use them.
Hence integrated ticketing, electronic ticketing, and a change to only random ticket checking (with fare gates in major stations) has all been bundled together.
Actually Geoff, due to the fact that I rarely carry cash any more, its a pain in the butt but then I am a casual user. I will however, get a new HOP card but the thing I’m very much looking forward to is the NFC payment option.
Geoff have you ever been or lived overseas? Your thinking is stuck in the 19th century. As someone who doesn’t carry cash, I hate getting money out to pay my on board fare. I can’t wait till Sydney gets its electronic ticketing system as theswipe tickets are so annoying but still better than aucklands current ‘system’. it won’t be in Sydney for some years so lookin forward to coming to Auckland to try out theirs.
Geoff, I disagree with your statement that the old system is easier for customers because they don’t have to do anything beforehand. With an electronic ticket that I can easily recharge or even auto-recharge, and where I don’t have to worry about having enough cash on me, the convenience is much higher. The simple extra action of having to pass a fare gate while having my card out to swipe is for me easily beaten by the extra convenience otherwise. Having just been in London and used the Oyster Card, I can’t wait for the snapper nonsense to be sorted out so we finally get something working here!
@Geoff “Not sure why you refer to lining up at Britomart. That must be some HOP thing?”
Correct me if I’m wrong (I’m not a regular train user), but isn’t it just single trip tickets that are available on board. I was under the impression to get monthly passes or any periodicals you had to buy them at one of the staffed stations, i.e. Britomart, Papakura etc.
Not sure, in my 15 years in Auckland I’ve always bought day passes or single tickets, and always from the train staff. Occasionally get a Discovery pass onboard my local bus route, and all I have to do with that on the train is show it to staff.
Seriously I can’t wait to see this happening….
Hamish, most ticketing is already prepaid, and the staff are largely just checking. Electronic ticketing is just about eliminating the remaining onboard sales, and is not about avoiding the need to check tickets. Ceasing to check tickets is a separate issue to ticket purchasing, and its goal is purely to reduce wage costs.
Fare evasion is likely to be significantly higher post-HOP, as it comes down to simple numbers. Cut the number of tickets being checked, and the higher evasion will go.
A few details on the fare gates:
http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/8713157/1006103270/name/Thales1.pdf
Sean, you may regard the simplicity of walking straight onto a train without having to do anything as “19th century” but that doesn’t change the fact that it is indeed the simplest system possible. I haven’t said keep it. Just that there are pros and cons to old and new systems. The new systems require more effort on behalf of the users, whether it’s buying, carrying and maintaining a card that you have to use to get a gate to open, or having to get to the station earlier to buy a ticket in your own time instead of while you are sitting down on your journey. None of the new options are difficult, but their simplicity is less than the current system for one-off users, of just boarding without doing anything. Each to their own.
…but once on board you must have cash, and faff about purchasing a ticket, collecting change and holding on to the little stub, so there are elements of that transaction that aren’t simple also. For myself, someone who automates most of my banking and spending, having an transit account that gets automatically topped up out of my paycheck each fortnight is simpler that ensuring I have the right amount of coins and small notes in my wallet every time I travel.
Also if I can ping at a tag post or gate through the side of my bag as I walk past, I would find that easier than getting my wallet out, buying the ticket and sorting the change.
Anyone know if the new/future Parnell station will be gated or not? As it is between 2 gated stations and is more or less a city/central station.
I’d say probably not given the designs I’ve seen so far. I remember it being a ‘leaky’ suburban style station with lots of access points.
I can understand them not installing them when the station opens, but it’s pretty disappointing they haven’t future proofed the station to possibly have them in future. This is after all a completely new start from scratch station.
Parnell station is being built like all other stations, with side platforms and multiple entrances, which are necessary to keep walking routes as direct as possible. I’ve always thought Parnell would have made an excellent centre platform site, as the Newmarket station building has two canopies and would have looked more natural on a centre platform.
Auckland Transport have just confirmed to me that anyone using paper tickets will need to go through a separate gate and have their tickets manually checked and clipped. That means the paper tickets issued by the machines will just be plain print outs.
At least there won’t be any delays to HOP users from cash-paying users.
As I expected, as Veolia will still have to accept paper tickets printed out on buses, and those are just plain ones.
Matt’s comment does nothing to prove that when integrated ticketing is rolled out a ‘discovery pass’ or equivalent will be available on buses and accepted on trains, but that the technology will not limit the possibility. I don’t know why they would though, better to sell HOP cards on buses and use a maximum daily, weekly and monthly fare instead of passes.
Why will they have to Geoff? Whose to say that all periodicals and passes won’t be HOP only, with paper just for singles?
Because it makes no sense to issue a plastic card for one-off use, instead of a simple paper ticket, and because the paper ticket dispensers are already in the buses. I keep being told that paper tickets are costly, well plastic cards are more costly.
I wonder how it would work in my case
I have a Northern Pass to get me to kingsland the i have a 10 ride pass that gets clipped to get my to mt albert
how do you think they will do it?
Vancouver Skytrain has the best system, it’s called a painted yellow line. If you are inside the yellow line without a valid ticket – it is fine time. The lack of gates means traffic flow is not impeded in busy periods as people queue for gates. Also these gate technologies are expensive compared to yellow paint. Why not spend that money on ticket enforcement, such that there is a high chance of being asked to produce a ticket onboard the train. Not like Auckland really has the money to waste on fancy gates.
If you don’t have a ticket the fine should be reasonably steep which will make people think twice about ticket evasion.
As I have written, different countries have different legal principles. In New Zealand you cannot be guilty of theft before you commit the act of theft. Fare evasion under New Zealand’s legal principles does not take place until you have completed your journey, AND refuse to pay before leaving the destination station, AND actually leave the station property. Up until that time, you cannot be accused of theft.
In other countries the principles are different, so different laws can be enacted. In the US for example, shoplifters can be arrested before leaving the shop. In New Zealand they cannot, because they have to leave the shop in order to have commited the crime. Both countries have the same law of theft as a crime, but different principles mean enforcement differs.
So you could introduce a law that allows fining people for fare evasion, but you’ll have to wait until they are out on the street to issue it.
@Mrv,
The yellow line is coming to an end thou, They are gating the Skytrain,, with the excuse given that it will make customers feel safer
http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/mediaroom/releases-2011-h062e-6400.htm
Although it does appear that it might take a while to do the whole network…
http://www.theprovince.com/news/Fare+gates+Vancouver+SkyTrain+stations+fall+victim+TransLink+budget+squeeze/6473975/story.html
Goeff/greenwelly
Thanks for the contrustive replies. Yes I agree the legal perspective you outlines somewhat complicates the issue. However what about other legal principles?
For example if I sneak into a movie without paying, surely I have commited an offence then and there and don’t need to actually watch the entire movie before being able to be charged with an offence.
Could you use trespass laws for example without a valid ticket I have no right to be inside the movie cinema, or inside the rail network?
Yes i note Vancouver is going to start rolling out gates, but I think they might rue the decision. It seems to me there is still a debate, that yes they might lose a % of revenue (I think in Vancouver they estimate it is about 5%). But then what is the cost of capital outlays for gates, gate maintenance, associated computer systems etc etc. I’m far from convinced that gates are necessarily the way to go.
Particularly in Auckland where you’d want to see max capital expenditure on the network, trains, track, signals, other useful station facilities. The auto gates seem like an expensive option in many ways. Why not trial a yelllow painted line, at least until patronage is high enough to justify the fancy gates? It should all be about getting the most bang for the buck.
I bet overtime a trained person would be able to spot the demeanour of a fare evader quite easily. In any case in many cities of the world you see people just discretely jumping the gates anyway, so its not a complete solution either.
George Wood tweeted “Integrated tickets 1 Nov” today, whatever that means (train and ferry only still?). Excitement?!